The state of Sturmtiger

You are completly missing the fact that AVRE is not map dependant what so ever.

Unlike ST, AVRE can always just pop out from any sight blocker (even with some micro with turret already rotated), deliver the shot move back, while ST requare either have to move in and out in a strate line or he would have to rotate increasing its firing time. Also lets not forget that AVRE benifits from Hammer speed boost aswell.
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Few points:
Apart from collision inconsistency, the decrew mechanic was removed. So its ridiculous veterancy now only removed with the tank itself. This made a) more convenient to use and reload whenever you want b) removed the ST sharing/multiplying exploit.

While AVRE is more flexible ST is able to fire from the fog of war and with vet it selfspots and shoots from 45 range.

Yes, AVRE gets a lot of armor, but ST gets some armor with vet as well as health. 1440 health and 242 frontal armor is nothing to sneeze at. But imo unit like panther helps a lot with dealing with such unit.
Also lets not forget that UKF is a awkward faction.

While the projectile became slower the delay between shooting command and impact is almost the same. Used to be 1s for shell to hit 40m and 3s delay. Now it is 1.6s for shell to hit 40m and 2.5s delay. So 4 vs 4.1s. I agree that Shell speed is important, but if you screwed with detecting prepatched ST you almost certainly done (shell could collide), not you can sort of react, but again, if you screwed with detecting new ST, you still are certainly done.

As an anecdotal example Duffmann used to spam this doctrine a lot before the commander patch. He used ST, but never liked it. Now he think it is way too good. Same with Siberian, Jibber, BaoLiang, Elpern. Although I can't provide any evidence they said it. + we have ridiculous pickrate of the commander. Pretty much if you are not a SOV without a "Mark Target" you gonna have a big problem.

Here are my words that sums up my opinion about nuking units:

The unit is toxic and nerve racking to play against, especially vs double rax build. Nerve racking and toxic destroys the mood while playing the game and I'd like to have fun while doing so.
This is similar situation like with ISU, that used to be completely broken (in teamgames including 2v2), except with ST you need to pay 5x attention during a game, or else you have a good chance of losing it.

Units that are in the conflict with the core idea of COH2 as an RTS (unit preservation) should not be highly effective or nowhere near meta, regardless of which faction owns one

So pretty much I'm ok with AVRE and ST at any level below OK and hoping a lot of people share my sentiment.

If anything, I would have introduced system which was used on the JT back in the day, where each non-penetrating shot have a chance to gave "crew shot" crit.

In other words both ST and AVRE would be have a chance to be stunned for a really short period of time, if they are being fired upon (canceling the fire animation respectively), meaning that the player wont be able to just yolo them.

On top of that ST should have its reload canceled upon taking damage. It wont be as bad as an abandon and it wont be abusable, but it will stick close to the original idea that you should back off when reloading it.

These are more sensable changes.

I've just taken to playing Axis till the Sturmtiger is fixed.

It's pretty ridiculous, firing outside of LOS or behind sight blockers and just wiping squads of vet 3 upgraded infantry with no little to no counterplay if you don't have recon troops to pre-spot it and like 4* its popcap in anti-tank.
Salt on the wound is that its 165 fuel and 500MP. Absurdly cheap for its power.

This monster is terrorising team games in 4v4 and 3v3.

It needs a rework, and needs it now.
For sake of fairness, Neither it nor the AVRE, absurd wipe units deserves to exist in this game.
The game is about squad preservation yet these units give you an easy way to insta-wipe squads.

Rocket arty is bad enough, but at least its easy to dive or counter-arty, and has a longer cooldown and less firepower.

My suggestions: For Fairness for axis players:

-Make the AVRE and the Sturmtiger both have the same range and damage profile. Do not let them have more than 35 range even with Vet; they should have to be seen by regular infantry to shoot.
-Make the sturmtiger tankier than the AVRE; the AVRE has a turret and better reload system.
-Make the Sturmtiger and AVRE reveal themselves in the FOW when preparing to fire.
Reduce their kill and heavy damage radius and raise their moderate and slight hurting radius, give them both a wide Suppression/pin+Stun mechanic that suppresses and pins enemy squads in a wide area around the explosion.
-Applies Stun to enemy vehicles in a moderate radius, applies Stun to enemy Team weapons and Infantry in a large Radius.

This turns the AVRE and Sturmtiger into support platforms used to hurt and suppress enemy units over a wide area, instead of just deleting squads and AT-guns from the Fog of war or LOS. Aka a crowd control/support unit.

TBH I think Rocket arty should have the same treatment; suppression platforms rather than wipe-machines.

You are completly missing the fact that AVRE is not map dependant what so ever.

Unlike ST, AVRE can always just pop out from any sight blocker (even with some micro with turret already rotated), deliver the shot move back, while ST requare either have to move in and out in a strate line or he would have to rotate increasing its firing time. Also lets not forget that AVRE benifits from Hammer speed boost aswell.

You are missing the whole point of why ST is rated so high by ppl at this moment.

Pop out of sight blocker? ST fire OUT OF SIGHT. Thanks to 40 range (or 45 after vet up), tragectile collision made almost impossible to fire at out of sight before vet up.

And let's not forget that ST can repair itself thanks to the commander.

Not to mention that if ST is hard to destoy, AVRE is practically almost immortal unless its target by litteraly AT army. Not only it has better frotanl armor then ST, but even the rear armor is hard to penetrate by anything lesser Panther, not counting stugs and JP4 (but good luck getting them to shoot rear to begin with).

Armor is one thing, ST has 1440 with 242 armor. Needs 8 shot to kill. And let's not forget AVRE must get close to shoot, and can't avoid spotted before shot. There is a reason why ppl don't use AVRE much. (TBH UKF itself is not used much.)

Also I dont really unrestand what actually make ST too good right now? Its pretty much the same as it was before, with the only difference being that its now works properly without collision bugs.

You seem to never faced players who was able to play with it properly before the change, trust me it was much-MUCH worst then it is right now, because of how fast projectile was.

Trust me, if Stuka zu Fuss got its UI changed to show where rockets will land, there would have been 1000 theards about how broken it become.

Point is both AVRE and ST should have never existed in a first place. They are always will be either BS or meme units. ST was meme before with 90% of player base unable to use it properly and AVRE was a BS. Now every one can use ST normally and it suddenly OP.

Best case scenario, is to make both AVRE and ST a meme units again, since we have no chance of deleting them from the game anyway.

* Can fire out of sight
* Decrew mechanism removed - reload right after shoot saved 5 ~ 15 sec. compare to previous version
* Slowing projectile yet firing faster actually made shot lands faster than before unless you fire it at the MAX range.

You saying "its pretty much the same as it was before" and "ST was meme before ... now every one can use ST normally" at the same post feels quite contradict to me

B4 has much more impact than ST or AVRE.
you can even spam B4. and they cost less .

they fire 3 shells over the whole map (most maps).

idk why some ppl this ok and ST is OP bs.

B4 has much more impact than ST or AVRE.
you can even spam B4. and they cost less .

they fire 3 shells over the whole map (most maps).

idk why some ppl this ok and ST is OP bs.

I agree that b4 should be limited to 1 per player. If the ST needs a nerf than the B4 needs to have the same treatment.

I'll just leave it here.

ST is a good unit, but it´s not OP. And it is inside a very bad commander.

Allies late game have a lot of counters, in form of TD and Arty.

B4 has much more impact than ST or AVRE

Funny joke

ST is a good unit, but it´s not OP. And it is inside a very bad commander.

Allies late game have a lot of counters, in form of TD and Arty.

Yet those counters cant prevent inf squads at guns etc from getting one shotted from the fow. Just because there are counters doesnt make the st fine. There have been many abilities nerfed/removed despite their being counters in the past.

Ram is a recent example and still op cuz it excist according to some, mines being locked at 2 models per squad to prevent full squad wipes with little to no effort (wich is what the ST and avre are) from long ago. And obviously the demo nerf wich needs no explenation.

Both B4 and Sturmtiger should be capped to 2 Models with the exception of Team Weapons.

This would make these units more fair to deal with and give them more of an anti team weapon role as oppossed to anti everything nuclear launch activated unit that they both are at the moment.

Both B4 and Sturmtiger should be capped to 2 Models with the exception of Team Weapons.

This would make these units more fair to deal with and give them more of an anti team weapon role as oppossed to anti everything nuclear launch activated unit that they both are at the moment.

That would promote blobbing even more. Imagine blobbing 21 conscripts and knowing that a fu***** NUKE will only kill 6 models, 2 of each squad. I'm fine with Sturm wiping everything in the AOE, however, the AOE is too large. Alongside the self spotting and 40 range with veterancy, it's crazy OP in teamgames. Especially now that it can shoot over obstacles much more proficiently. Sturm is 8 hit hp pool with a good chunk of armor that only TDs can penetrate. If you combine it with the fact that OKW has the super aggressive raketen which can retreat after the initial salvo on the fronlines, you have a sturdy AT/AI line that will not be broken unless you spam 2 rocket arty on the whole area before-hand (which only soviets can do stock) ON MOST TEAMGAME MAPS.

Both AVRE and Sturm should have clear advantages/disadvantages. Sure the AVRE has a turret, but unless the ST is snared (rarity), the turret is the same as the ST rotating it's hull in the general direction, and then the turret. I mean, it's a 50 degree arc. Unless you're shooting at something directly in front of you, the arc is large enough that the turretlessness on ST is negligible (lines extending the further you are).
Both AVRE and ST should have clear advantages and both need some reworks in lines of:
1) Increasing aim-time by a 1.5s
2) Normal 35 sight at all veterancies
3) Fire range 35 at all vet
4) Slight AOE reduction in both. Sturm keeps the larger AOE due to lack of turret
5) Reloading both makes them be completely immobile. If you cancel the reload (in order to get out of danger), it takes it about 2-3 seconds

Side note: Same should be done with the hull-down. There should be a delay from the time you exit hull-down and being able to drive/shoot. Right now you can hull-down, get all the advantages, and if in danger, just quickly zip away out of hull-down and drive away. Or just make the hull-down to be a channeled ability.

That would promote blobbing even more. Imagine blobbing 21 conscripts and knowing that a fu***** NUKE will only kill 6 models, 2 of each squad. I'm fine with Sturm wiping everything in the AOE, however, the AOE is too large. Alongside the self spotting and 40 range with veterancy, it's crazy OP in teamgames. Especially now that it can shoot over obstacles much more proficiently. Sturm is 8 hit hp pool with a good chunk of armor that only TDs can penetrate. If you combine it with the fact that OKW has the super aggressive raketen which can retreat after the initial salvo on the fronlines, you have a sturdy AT/AI line that will not be broken unless you spam 2 rocket arty on the whole area before-hand (which only soviets can do stock) ON MOST TEAMGAME MAPS.

Both AVRE and Sturm should have clear advantages/disadvantages. Sure the AVRE has a turret, but unless the ST is snared (rarity), the turret is the same as the ST rotating it's hull in the general direction, and then the turret. I mean, it's a 50 degree arc. Unless you're shooting at something directly in front of you, the arc is large enough that the turretlessness on ST is negligible (lines extending the further you are).
Both AVRE and ST should have clear advantages and both need some reworks in lines of:
1) Increasing aim-time by a 1.5s
2) Normal 35 sight at all veterancies
3) Fire range 35 at all vet
4) Slight AOE reduction in both. Sturm keeps the larger AOE due to lack of turret
5) Reloading both makes them be completely immobile. If you cancel the reload (in order to get out of danger), it takes it about 2-3 seconds

Side note: Same should be done with the hull-down. There should be a delay from the time you exit hull-down and being able to drive/shoot. Right now you can hull-down, get all the advantages, and if in danger, just quickly zip away out of hull-down and drive away. Or just make the hull-down to be a channeled ability.

I am ok with AVRE/STURMTIGER only killing 2 Models from Conscripts if it meant that Conscripts would be pinned afterwards and also Health for each remaining model would be significantly reduced. While still having the ability to delete team weapons (the main thing it should counter). Company of Heroes should be about combined arms, not having units shoot nuclear strikes that delete everything in the game. Where is the counter to a unit that one shots everything with the exception of heavy tanks?

This would also allow for buffs to the MG(Avre) or the Vet 1 Grenade Ability (Sturm) to be improved so that these units can maintain an active presence in combat. For example If SturmTiger had the ability to reload without any Penalty, The Vet 1 ability was balanced to be on all of the time while the main gun being capped to only 2 models with the exception of Team Weapons would be better overall for those using it and those playing against it. Especially if the Vet 1 grenade ability gave it respectable AI performance close to what you would get with an Ostwind.

This doesn't change the fact that these units would still be potent vs vehicles but the way it exists now it shouldn't exist in the game at all.

the true questions are Will they? and When?

the true questions are Will they? and When?

Hardly. Right now it's just a beating of a dead horse. I highly doubt anything new will come. I remember playing vs Sander 2 weeks ago. Abused the sh** out of fussies and then when he lost he trash-talked and insulted his random teammate who was kinda bad, but nothing too bad. I'm quite sure they are sitting pretty on the imbalance they made and the focus will now go to the COH3.
I just hope that people like Sander (played with him 3 times, insulted and trash-talked each and every time his own, honestly, worse teammates) never go on the balance team of COH3 only to screw up the balance there in 5+ years.

Just reduce the fire range to 35 and if ppl still complain, they clearly weren't paying attention to the massive tank in front of them. LOS blocker shots are another matter though and can make/break AVRE/ST as a unit.

Hardly. Right now it's just a beating of a dead horse. I highly doubt anything new will come. I remember playing vs Sander 2 weeks ago. Abused the sh** out of fussies and then when he lost he trash-talked and insulted his random teammate who was kinda bad, but nothing too bad. I'm quite sure they are sitting pretty on the imbalance they made and the focus will now go to the COH3.
I just hope that people like Sander (played with him 3 times, insulted and trash-talked each and every time his own, honestly, worse teammates) never go on the balance team of COH3 only to screw up the balance there in 5+ years.

Sander is a pretty garbo player, on top of being mouthy, and I honestly have no idea how he was even considered for work on the balance team. Does his dad's uncle's best friend work at Relic or something?

Sander is a pretty garbo player, on top of being mouthy, and I honestly have no idea how he was even considered for work on the balance team. Does his dad's uncle's best friend work at Relic or something?

Ahh yes top 10 rank in 3v3 SOV among other things = garbo.

Guess I should quit the OKW 3v3 ladder then, I still get lectured basic OKW concepts lectured to me every now and then lol.

Ahh yes top 10 rank in 3v3 SOV among other things = garbo.

Guess I should quit the OKW 3v3 ladder then, I still get lectured basic OKW concepts lectured to me every now and then lol.

3vs3 is probably the worst bracket, nobody plays it.

Ahh yes top 10 rank in 3v3 SOV among other things = garbo.

Guess I should quit the OKW 3v3 ladder then, I still get lectured basic OKW concepts lectured to me every now and then lol.

He is a good player, but I've just played with a pos 4 soviet player that blobbed 4 penals and 2 T3485s and lost all of them to one bombing run xD then quit. It's chaotic the skill difference in some factions