What could be done about engineer vet

Jump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 10:37 AMVipper

The change that is actually needed is the minesweeper should actually take a weapon slot and so should the Vickers K

Jump back to quoted post8 Jul 2021, 22:56 PMKurobane

Also keep in mind that Combat Engineers and Pioneers are not as combat efficient as other Engineers. It would be a fair trade to allow them to repair better.


USF - Rear Echelons can be given Bazookas for easy leveling. They also get 5th Squad Member at Vet 3 which also increases repair speed on top of the Vet 2 bonus

UKF - Royal Engineers - 5th Man with Upgrade which increases Repair Speed, as well as the Anvil Upgrade which also increases repair speed as well as having bonus repair speed with Vet. Also significantly easier to level due to Piats/Brens

OKW - Sturm Pioneers - Extremely Strong combat unit right at the start of the game, will destroy most units close range, Can get MineSweepers and Toggle them on/off so they dont lose combat potential as well as Panzershreck later on for easy leveling vs vehicles.

This leaves Soviets and Whermacht with by far the worst Engineers in the game in terms of combat potential and overall usefulness.

Having Shared Vet added is perfectly reasonable for these 2 factions. Especially if it comes at T3/T4 or even as a paid research option. This would make up for the lack of combat potential compared to other factions.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 12:09 PMKlement Pikhtura

Also it would be really appreciated if somebody broke down the full repair speeds of all engies in the game per entity.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 10:37 AMVipper

One should simply not expect a 170MP+30 MU unnit to perform the same with 210MP+120MU unit...

Jump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 10:37 AMVipper

Getting more than one engineer as EFA is actually more viable strategy than using more than one as WFA.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 12:24 PMHannibal

Ages ago I searched for them and made this post. Topic and context were different back then, as well as the sweeper repair boost was not implemented yet. So basically ignore the argumentative part.

But these were the numbers I found in the editor.
Show Spoiler

The OKW T2 repairatrons turned out to have a repair speed of 3 each, making it 9 in total.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 17:14 PMKlement Pikhtura

I've made a table with multipliers (everything with flat bonuses converted to multipliers) and full squad values with bonuses added.

Bonuses are:
USF - 5th man.
Royal Engineers - Heavy Sapper upgrade
OKW - Sweeper. Added option with "shady bonus" (Have no idea if it applies to flat base value or to accumulated value with bonuses)
CE/pios - Sweeper

If everything is correct, I'll publish values in separate thread, so people could actually google it, because such data is extremely hard to find

Jump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 17:14 PMKlement Pikhtura

I've made a table with multipliers (everything with flat bonuses converted to multipliers) and full squad values with bonuses added.

Bonuses are:
USF - 5th man.
Royal Engineers - Heavy Sapper upgrade
OKW - Sweeper. Added option with "shady bonus" (Have no idea if it applies to flat base value or to accumulated value with bonuses)
CE/pios - Sweeper

If everything is correct, I'll publish values in separate thread, so people could actually google it, because such data is extremely hard to find

Jump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 18:35 PMHannibal

I understood all these as flat values, at least the values check out with the veterancy guide if taken as absolute values. I don't know if this repair speed is further modified. Does it really take a minute for a single pio squad to repair a P4 back to full health? I really can't tell.

Assuming this is true: Your table needs more decimals, the rounding makes it look weird. And assuming that the values provide an absolute boost, I would annotate them as absolute values and not relative modifiers (otherwise your calcs will be incorrect).

Another metric that would be worth calculating is the repair rate per pop as some value for efficiency, but maybe that's only me.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 23:09 PMKlement Pikhtura

So I read all the vets and bonuses carefully and edited the table. Took me some time to wrap my head around every bonus and some vets.

The "shady" bonus appears to be alright, because it makes a clean value. I added it after the 25% bonus were applied. Although you can go so far on "what appears to be correct".

Hopefully everything is correct now.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 06:57 AMMMX

really interesting stuff, great work! i've always wondered how fast/effective repairs are among the different factions, now i can finally look it up in a sleek table.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 10:12 AMUnit G17

Eastern front sweeper engineers are the only utility units left in the game that is not meant to participate in combat, yet doesn't receive shared beterancy. I mean look, every officer (even tho some of them can take very good care of themselves), halftracks (even tho some of them can be upgraded to be very relevant in combat), the kubel and now even the M3 scout car receives shared veterancy. Western front enginners can grab AT weapons to quickly gain xp.
The sweeper pios and CEs are the only units left in the whole game that has trouble getting xp for themselves.

I still say their vet requirements should be increased a bit and grant them shared veterancy.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 12:52 PMKlement Pikhtura

...
Increased vet requirements means less vet for flamers and this hurts SOV more then OST.
..

Jump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 13:36 PMVipper

Why?

Jump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 13:49 PMKlement Pikhtura

because you get your vet later, hence increased vet requirements. And it hurts SOV more. Sov flamer is better then OST because of merge. It is very common to not upgrade Pios with flamer, while it is very rare to see SOV without one. Please, no derailment.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 16:09 PMVipper

Nope that does not make sense, the effect would be the same.

Please do not write things that are of topic of you are afraid of derailing a thread.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 18:33 PMKlement Pikhtura

OST flamer upgrade competes for muni with healing, mg42s and g43s for grens, while flamer for SOV is decent damage boost for con openings + it competes only with mines early game. While higher vet does not provide a lot of combat bonuses for combat engies, it reduced downtime for t70 later a lot (+60% repair speed for engies with vet 2). Take a look at top players that rarely skip flamer upgrade with SOV and even go with 2 flamers vs particular builds, on the contrary it is ok for OST to skip flamer all together.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 12:52 PMKlement Pikhtura

Increased vet requirements means less vet for flamers and this hurts SOV more then OST.

There are a lot of questions that are needed to be addressed before making any conclusion. Although there is case that shows sweeper almost brings repair speed of CE and pios to the level of vet 0 sturms/Royal Engineers. But in teams of pop cap and price CE and pios are cheaper. Of course potential utility of sturms and royal engies reaches beyond repairing and sweeping, especially this applies to sturms (no cries for nerfs, just to be clear).