4v4 win rates disparity

Its offtopic, but there you go:

Use the smoke from your IS? Yes brit IS can smoke if you don't go for the medic upgrade, which is not needed for all IS.(I know many people don't know it or don't use it... but as top player you should know that )
And yes sometimes i use the smoke from the aec that is correct.
Also the normal commander doc is meta and very usefull. You can make good pushes with this smoke.
Also yes the mortar smoke range is great.

Indeed offtopic but yet keep getting an answer on only offtopic things. Not on the UKF balance directly. TBH I don"t know why they got nerfed in last patch & kinda will be in commander patch. They did horrible since last year and new stat site & recent MLs are proving it.

However, yeah srry for missing that, keep forgetting last year winter patch made that possible. But not really a big fan of arty-IS since I don't call medic to the field.

Sturm can balance Germans as much as he wants, but I don't expect him to say anything about USF or Brit balancing

Rather than trying to make this about the balancing team, you might try focusing on the data and the issue.

The data isn't surprising to anyone who has played all factions. For me, it doesn't matter very much whether I'm playing OST or OKW - it feels like I just need to get my two Panthers out as soon as possible then start picking away at the other team. Eventually they will collapse. On a map like Red Ball I might back them with a Ele or JT, but most of the time just need Panthers. I only need one MG (doesn't matter whether it is a MG34 or MG42) where I would normally need two allied mg's (except possibly a vickers). Nerfing the firing arc of those to match the allied mg's would go a long way to evening some of the matchups.

...

So after this thread got derailed in multiple ways without getting something out of it.
Is it like that? The stats are simply wrong? Just leave it alone?

For me it is quite obvious that Axis get better in lategame, allied have a stronger early to midgame phase with strong upgradeable mainline infantry. Because of ressource inflation and map problems (no, it is not enough to ban just a few maps) 3vs3 and 4vs4 take place mainly in lategame and at 100 population it is just easier to micro some more expensive and more powerful german tanks than multiple smaller and less powerful tanks. Maybe it is just my micro skills and top players don't have that problem, but a game shouldn't be centered about 200 players playing it. If top 200 players are just doing okay but the 5000 players below them are struggling more with the micro of one faction there is something fundamentally wrong.

In addition I honestly do not understand why the first available rocket artillery in 3vs3 / 4vs4 has so much wiping power and noone lays hands on it. If brit emplacements are the problem (which you could counter with LeiG anyway) solve it with target tables, that doesn't justify that wiping potential vs team weapons and infantry.

Why not give allied some dedicated late game commanders that suffer in the early-midgame aspects? Why not using E8, KW-1, Pershing, Churchill, Comet and IS-2 as real late game options which simply does not get beaten that easily by Panther in a 1vs1 situation (and it gets worse when multiple tanks are involved on both sides)?

This is Top200 games. People in Top200 random games don't know how to kill a MG? I'm not Top200, I only was close to beeing Top200, but I know how to do it.

yes totally. top 200 in teamgames means you can get a totally boosted 45% winrate player with inflated ranks. I see it all the time where allies randoms cannot deal with MG42 or heavy axis tanks at all.



Another big issue are the punishing tech trees from USF and Soviet. Axis always have everything available basically and dont need to back tech.

But now if you have a teammate who went sov t1 or USF captain for example, they often get rekt vs OKW blob or lmg42 blob. Because they have no MG. Or vs tank rush if they went Lieutenant

About why axis have higher win rate in 4vs4! :


3. As allies random: Ban redball, port of hamburg. Snow maps are not that bad. Lower your settings or get better pc if you have still problems.

I know. I KNOW ABOUT IT!
i know this map have some shit. but you make "more" shit maps gives to me, aren't you? so ban card is limted, i cannot ban this map because i must another shit map. la gleize, general mud... what think do you about this map?

- Speed up US rifle-nade snare (even better, just replace it with a
regular AT nade)

I wonder if making that the vet 1 ability of the Riflemen would be more useful than the 25% faster reload.

About why axis have higher win rate in 4vs4!

So in short, nothing is changing.

2. Ok ask yourself, how often do you use smoke?

No one uses the smoke because its terrible. Throw range of a smoke grenade, but the delay of an artillery barrage. By the time it arrives its too late, and you can't cast it from far enough away to setup a useful blind on an MG.

No one uses the smoke because its terrible. Throw range of a smoke grenade, but the delay of an artillery barrage. By the time it arrives its too late, and you can't cast it from far enough away to setup a useful blind on an MG.

I like the smoke quite a lot actually, just because you don't have to rely on anything external to use it. I think in teamgames it becomes a lot more complicated then "just smoke lol".

In team games they can just layer their defenses. Layering their defenses means far more pushes towards their base. Pushes towards their base means they more often then not have the advantage due to pre-built cover or enemy forces/more mgs.

Then "going even" with using muni smoke doesn't help. Your opponent is going to be upgrading their guns with the munis they aren't spending so that they won't even need the MG to beat you. I've experimented with going hyper aggression in 2v2+ with USF using grenades and smoke and it rarely works out simply because I'd have no munitions for critical gun upgrades.

I had experimented with mortar/mortar halftrack smoke and questions came to mind like "Why can it miss?" and "Man that takes a while to land". You'd have to team up with someone too because as USF if they blob and you bought a mortar you're down 1 fighting squad in the meantime.

If top 200 players are just doing okay but the 5000 players below them are struggling more with the micro of one faction there is something fundamentally wrong.

And this is why this game has so little players still playing and why it's going to only get worse. This always happens to games which cater only to the supposedly "good" players according to rankings, completely disregarding they're all biased as hell and aren't a representation of how most players actually play the game. Not to mention the idea with all these "community patches" seems to be to just make everything samey and almost mirror matched because that's what competetive - boring ass meta units and builds.

As i assumed:

1. Only one player in the match is in top 200 -- current implementation
2. At least 1 player from each team needs to be in top 200
3. At least 50% of players needs to be from top 200
4. All the players needs to be in top 200
5. something else?

So sadly the stats are not really good for 3vs3, 4vs4.

I am for using option 4. Then atleast for 1vs1 and 2vs2 you get good stats

As i assumed:


So sadly the stats are not really good for 3vs3, 4vs4.


I am for using option 4. Then atleast for 1vs1 and 2vs2 you get good stats

For randoms, they are quite fine. You know... randoms are well... random. If you take "All 6/8 players need to be top 200, you're going to have a short list. So, since playing random games insures wonky rankings, it's the standard.
Option 4 would be preferable for all modes. If anything, it would show us how many games are actually played that could be classified as "good games" in 3v3+ games. I wouldn't be surprised if in a week, <100 games are played with everyone in top 200. Top 500 would probably go in the 3 figure number.

1. We loose ground early because walking stuka made some good wiping hits at crowded 4vs4 maps. Walking Stuka really comes way to early in 4vs4 when it is no disadvantage for one axis player to go directly for it (this thing needs more consistent damage over a wider area and less wipes). I play this a lot by myself to be honest, but thats no excuse ;-)

Yeah, it's amazing how early the Stuka can come out in 4v4s. You only need 15+45+100 fuel to get one out if you go Mech, which is very common in team games. Even if you go Battlegroup it's just an additional 55 fuel if you unlock everything on it for a total of 215 fuel, but again most players rushing a stuka skip Battlegroups upgrades and just get the HQ out and retreat point, maybe medics. So most players are getting a Stuka for only 160 fuel which is insane in a 4v4 match. Sure, you can't get away with this in a 1v1 because you will be hard countered so fast by a LV, but in 3v3 and 4v4 it's very easy to get away with it.

I think that the Stuka should still come from the Mech truck, but it should be locked until you set up your Schwerer Panzer HQ, which costs an additional 105 fuel making its timing more similar to other rocket arty like the Panzerwerfer and Katyusha which come out at ~275-295 and 265 fuel respectively if you use all fuel to rush them. Locking it behind a built Schwerer means it cost a minimum of 265 fuel to get out a stuka. I really see this as a completely sensible solution.

But again, for Ostheer and Soviets, rushing out rocket arty is not a viable strategy because it still comes too late and if you rush it you're not going to have any reasonable counter to a pz iv or ostwind or anything else to protect it. You really need a T-70, or a T-34, or a M3 / M5 which delays it even further as soviets. OKW is just able to rush it because they can put all their manpower towards having AT, MG, a strong infantry presence and then get out the Stuka asap. Not to mention, it's very hard to get a very good first barrage with the Katyusha or Panzerwerfer anyways because their damage potential and wipe potential at range is much less than a walking stuka dropping a strike on team weapons.

Totally agree. I am glad I am not the only one that thinks adding the AT strafe to Jäger Armour has not turned out to be a good idea. Especially when compared to the ISU doctrines and their AI strafe.

The Stuka strafe is so good too, on maps like redball on the lower right corner if the allies have tanks and rocket arty there you can kill them so fast from the edge of the map. Recon overflight + stuka strike = many dead vehicles on that part of that map. Even if you just call if in from the direction of the bottom team's base it's very effective.

Jaeger Armor needs to see some real adjustments to make team games manageable, because as long as it's in its current state people will keep using it every single match. It's just too effective of a commander right now.

Also, since you also have another teammate going storm doctrine you can just use stuka smoke bombs to spot as well if you don't want to spend / don't have muni on recon. It's just another ability that isn't really a recon ability that can be used as one. I think the vision should be removed from the plane honestly so it can't act as a recon unit for only 40 munis.

i love port of hamburg as wehrboo, i can camp elefant! i can spam repairs easily

but no, i dont see how elefant need nerf. It is necessary in 2v2 if you see isu or churchill.

elefant rof is slow, the whole unit is slow! it hits hard but easily flank

i love port of hamburg as wehrboo, i can camp elefant! i can spam repairs easily

but no, i dont see how elefant need nerf. It is necessary in 2v2 if you see isu or churchill.

elefant rof is slow, the whole unit is slow! it hits hard but easily flank

As long as there's an open flank.

As i assumed:


So sadly the stats are not really good for 3vs3, 4vs4.

I am for using option 4. Then atleast for 1vs1 and 2vs2 you get good stats

Since you are not answering #83, and thats you right, I want to say you just can't discuss away that below Top200 allied tank lategame is more difficult to play. You can reaffirm your argument about the stats not beeing significant as often as you want. It is obvious that this is not just a l2p issue, it is fundmental faction core design.
While both Axis factions have the nondoc Panther and thus have fewer high health/armor tanks that take less micro to manage allied factions just don't have it.
While axis factions have doctrinal elite infantry that can compete with the stronger allied mainline infantry the allied factions don't have a single doctrinal tank that can compete with Panther in numbers and build in numbers itself. Even the Pershing which wasn't really a WW2 tank but the first modern tank that showed up at the last seconds of the war, struggles hard versus a Panther. It clearly should be superior by any measure. But it seems to me superior german late game armor is a core problem you don't want to touch. I'm german myself and i do think that legend is ridiculous.

CoH2 still has a playerbase because there were no real good RTS alternatives in the past few years. Casual players which play this game just for the fun in big battles would switch to an better balanced game if there would be any.

Since you are not answering #83, and thats you right,

Ehm its not about because i have no arguments or something. If you look around in coh2.org Balance threads, i really rarely write or answer stuff in the balance forum.
So don't expect from me to get an answer in balance forum normally!

And if you read back my first statement was:

random vs random : axis winning more
premade vs premade: allies winning more

Allies have the right tools to knock out allies heavy very easy. But you need coordination for that.
In past soviet could do it alone. Soviet still can do it with ram and il2 bombstrike, but then you have no isu anymore.

2 su85 on redball with mark target are really good vs any wehrmacht tanks!
Don't forget what you can get and build compared for 1 Ele or JT.

Don't get me wrong, you can't instant kill an Ele or JT sometimes. But with some times or a help it works good. And then wehrmacht has lost big fuel and also CD on it.

And yes since the owner said the stats are for even when 1 single guy is top 200 and all other are 5k... It makes not too much sense for me. So i would prefer to have only top 200 stats when all people have it.
I know for 3vs3, 4vs4 you will not get many data then. But atleast they would be better.

And beside that, as aerafield and other people said, even if one guy has top 200, often they are just game spammer and have terrible win ration. So the top 200 does not say much.

Not sure what you want with your kv1, they are beast atm. Do you watch or play 1vs1 2vs2?
Comets were op as fuck the last few months.

Btw just an example what can happen even to Ele + KT.

https://youtu.be/5MxnOtG1E6U?t=2310


I think i don't have to search for ram+ il2 bombstrike videos or mark target Ele and then use p47 on it.

And i just say it now again, i will try to not response here anymore. I think everything is said from both side. So don't expect pls an answer here in the next few hours / days. If new stuff comes around, i maybe will post again. But i will follow this thread and read it.
Also the BT is looking into this thread.

It is necessary in 2v2 if you see isu or churchill.

Are you high? How bad are you you can't deal with a Churchill without resorting to the Elefant?

snip

Sturm destroying with facts and logic.

Ehm its not about because i have no arguments or something. If you look around in coh2.org Balance threads, i really rarely write or answer stuff in the balance forum.
So don't expect from me to get an answer in balance forum normally!

Thx for reacting to my post.

You took the time to wrote so much but still don't answered a single question... :-/
I'll write an answer here and repeat my questions, since i know you will read it at least.

First my questions again:
1. Why not giving Allies some doctrinal tanks in special late game commanders that can directly compete with Panther snowball but sacrifice earlygame and midgame power? I named a few doctrinal tanks that would come in consideration.
2.Why are existing tanks like Pershing integrated in such an unrealistic way? Pershing should have always the edge in a 1v1 situation versus a Panther.
3. Later I added the question about walking stuka hitting the field way before any other rocket artillery while having such a huge wiping potential. Why it is still untouched? Other wiping mechanics like mines / demo-charges were nerfed a long time ago although a simple minesweper would protect you.

And if you read back my first statement was:

random vs random : axis winning more
premade vs premade: allies winning more

I wonder where you have your data from. Your personal experience as a TopPlayer? In my personal experience it is not like that if you go down the ladder and you don't have to go very far.

Allies have the right tools to knock out allies heavy very easy. But you need coordination for that.
In past soviet could do it alone. Soviet still can do it with ram and il2 bombstrike, but then you have no isu anymore.

Gets harder now since you changed the effect of ram. In addition the IL2 rocket strafe (not the bombstrike you talked about) gets nerfed so hard, that i just can't stand it. From 380 to 80? I have no words for such a drastic change, without even touching its cost at all. It is more expensive than JU strafe while JU strafe does similar damage and penetrates heavy tanks frontally. Seems somebody wants to nerf it out of the game.

2 su85 on redball with mark target are really good vs any wehrmacht tanks!
Don't forget what you can get and build compared for 1 Ele or JT.

Don't get me wrong, you can't instant kill an Ele or JT sometimes. But with some times or a help it works good. And then wehrmacht has lost big fuel and also CD on it.

I was always talking about Panther snowball beeing to strong at some point of the game. Until you get there you just have to trade better. Don't know why you are talking about Ele or JT, I do not mentioned them a single time.

And yes since the owner said the stats are for even when 1 single guy is top 200 and all other are 5k... It makes not too much sense for me. So i would prefer to have only top 200 stats when all people have it.
I know for 3vs3, 4vs4 you will not get many data then. But atleast they would be better.

And beside that, as aerafield and other people said, even if one guy has top 200, often they are just game spammer and have terrible win ration. So the top 200 does not say much.

Since both sides should have players in their teams that are not Top200 or spammers and this should somehow even out over time the stats are highly accurate. There are enough games for a significant statement. If you watch the stats ove several weeks it is always more than 10% in favor of axis. I can't understand how someone can ignore that fact.

Not sure what you want with your kv1, they are beast atm. Do you watch or play 1vs1 2vs2?
Comets were op as fuck the last few months.

I play enough games at 2vs2 to have an opinion, I don't see any big problem there. You can always deal with a single Panther, that is out of question. You are trying explain so much to me but sadly none of it hits the mark.

Again we are in 4vs4 and somehow 3vs3... If you are going for multiple KV-1s you will be raped hard by Panthers. So I assume you build only one for fighting of Infantry and a possible PZIV. So the first Panther will vet itself at your KV-1 since it has superior range and penetration. Once he has 2-3 Panthers he will push you, ignoring your KV-1 and shooting directly at your SU-85. Su-85 are pretty hard to micro when pushed/flanked because of slow turning speed and fixed turret, you want to backdraw them while still rotating it to get Panther in shooting cone. That really sucks. You can do this with one Su-85 in 1vs1 and 2vs2, with two or three I fail on a regular basis. It is a lot harder than moving that attacking Panthers around the flank.

Btw just an example what can happen even to Ele + KT.

https://youtu.be/5MxnOtG1E6U?t=2310

I think i don't have to search for ram+ il2 bombstrike videos or mark target Ele and then use p47 on it.

I was never talking about Ele/JT/KT... but do you think that video is a good example? First he drove into a PAK wall and lost his JPIV plus getting his KT damaged, than there was no support (Raketen, Shreks, Snares). Of course things like that happen. But overall even at that game the axis team traded better, because they won.

And i just say it now again, i will try to not response here anymore. I think everything is said from both side. So don't expect pls an answer here in the next few hours / days. If new stuff comes around, i maybe will post again. But i will follow this thread and read it.
Also the BT is looking into this thread.

Just do this. there is still no logical explanation why the stats are not legit in any way. There is no approach to dealing with Panther snowball either.

Sturm destroying with facts and logic.

Please read the posts carefully bewfore writing things like that.

He took the time to answer. But there is no answer at a single question at all, writing about units in a 1vs1 and 2vs2 gamemode situation that were never part of this discussion and are not a problem.
Furthermore writing about JT or Ele while I never mentioned them once. I was talking about Panther snowball in 3vs3/4vs4 the whole time. He didn't adressed it at all.