Relief Infantry and Rapid conscription

Relief Infantry
The number of squads it can grant is being lowered. In exchange, Relief Infantry will provide other boosts such as improvements to build-times and reinforcement speed. Cost and CP requirements have also been adjusted to reflect these changes.

Squad count from 3 to 1
Osttrupen Squad that arrives always has an MG 42 LMG
Now speeds up reinforce and build times of all units by 50%
Cost from 120 munitions to 90
CP requirement from 6 to 5

Rapid Conscription
Rapid Conscription is being adjusted. The number of squads it can grant is being lowered. In exchange, Rapid Conscription will provide other boosts such as improvements to build-times and reinforcement speed. Cost and CP requirements have also been adjusted to reflect these changes.

Squad count from 2 to 1
Now speeds up reinforce and build time by 50%
CP requirement from 6 to 5
Munitions cost from 120 to 90

This design is rather counterintuitive. You want the Reinforce and Build time buffs after an engagement, and you want the losses replaced with Ostruppen during an engagement. So essentially you are paying 90 munitions for either a squad of Ostruppen or faster reinforce times, which are not worth 90 munitions on their own.

Honestly, this ability is a terrible design, and goes against everything coh2 is about, which is preserving your units. Also, most of the time you do not want extra squads. That is the whole reason USF got the “transfer orders” ability to get rid of their officers.

My suggestion was to make the reinforcement/build time a passive that is always on.

Break down like this:
Ability CP reduce to 2

Reinforcement/build time bonus now passive

Reinforcement/build time reduce bonus to 10%

Activating gives 10% received accuracy
UP to 2 squad that can merge but now reinforce.

i gotta say i really like the current approach in the commander preview, kind of a hybrid between the old relief infantry and recoup losses. not sure why you'd say you have to choose between getting a free squad and cheap and fast reinforcement, typically the duration is long enough to benefit from both...
btw, where's the option 'everything fine' in your poll?

Relief Infantry should be like "Recoup losses" from old Feuersturm:

- abilitiy costs 90 ammo
- duration 60 seconds
- get 80% mp back for every infantry model loss (e.g. 24mp for Gren/27mp for PG)

This would give Ostheer a strong ability to risk a heavy assault. And while Ostheer beeing a very ammo intensive faction 90 ammo are enough to not get abused. On top of that, you dont get 100% back so there will still be a MP bleed.

Maybe focus on the main mechanic of the game - saving the veteran units. And give one free reinforcement in exchange for two lost soldiers.

i gotta say i really like the current approach in the commander preview, kind of a hybrid between the old relief infantry and recoup losses. not sure why you'd say you have to choose between getting a free squad and cheap and fast reinforcement, typically the duration is long enough to benefit from both...
btw, where's the option 'everything fine' in your poll?

\

Oops I forgot

Originally it was two polls and when I combined them I forgot to add that option

Initially I wasn't very keen on rework of these abilities, but I do start to see their point and perhaps intended new use when leading attack/defending against push with reinforcement HT behind your troops.

The current redesign in the patch notes is the wrong approach imo (gives you a squad for sustained losses and boosts reinforcing speed). You either want the former or the latter. Having both ist not necessary as you either have your units in combat or are reinforcing. Reinforcing at the base means you are not using the compensation for losses to its fullest anyway.

That being said I think it should just give you manpower back like VonManteuffel said. Though 80% is a bit much. 50% seems to be appropriate.

As buff in test,it could use with HT,but I still want it rework,just use ammunition switch manpower,and like Vipper said reduce training and reinforcement time buff be passive

No one is gonna use these abilities. They don't serve any kind of play style. I suggest thinking some infantry based play styles and redesign the abilities around those play styles.

The current changes seems similar to something I suggested a few weeks ago. The idea of the ability is to allow the player to make a sustained push/ defense with halftrack or bunker resupply. I do think 90 munitions may be a little too much for the ability as is.

Just writing this to counter the idea that the reworked abilities are counterintuitive. They may be too situational, but they aren't necessarily counterintuitive.

The reinforcement/build time should be passive. Make it anywhere between 8-12 CP as an end game alternative to Heavy Tanks

Beta rework versions are certainly more appealing than live versions, but I'll still advocate that old Rapid Conscription can work with just some tweaks, simply because of Merge on Conscripts and how cost efficient it is. Relief Infantry is a harder nut to crack.

I posted my proposed Rapid Conscription rework with implementation some months ago, when previous patch was still in preview. It received a lukewarm response, but I'll still stand by it:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/107429/rapid-conscription-rework-proposal-with-implementation

TL;DR:
- Lost models are retained to "reserve" between Rapid Conscription activations. Up to 18 models may be stored in reserve (exact number up to balance).
- If at least 6 models are in reserve, player may call-in a Conscript squad at no cost from HQ, losing 6 models from reserve.
- Player may call-in Conscript squads from reserve at any time, not necessarily when Rapid Conscription is active.

The current redesign in the patch notes is the wrong approach imo (gives you a squad for sustained losses and boosts reinforcing speed). You either want the former or the latter. Having both ist not necessary as you either have your units in combat or are reinforcing. Reinforcing at the base means you are not using the compensation for losses to its fullest anyway.

That being said I think it should just give you manpower back like VonManteuffel said. Though 80% is a bit much. 50% seems to be appropriate.

while i disagree that you can't make proper use of both parts of the ability at the same time, i'd argue that this isn't even necessary to make it worthwhile in the first place.

if you want the free squad then use relief inf right before any major engagement where some model losses are expected.
if you prefer the reinforcement cost/speed reduction, use it after a massive retreat.

how i see it, the beta versions of RI and RC give you the flexibility to use either bonus as you see fit without blocking two separate commander slots. a really clever design approach in my opinion and way better than the previous incarnations of these abilities. maybe some number tweaking is still required to make both RI and RC more attractive, but i'm sure that can be worked out during later stages of the preview.

To me the simplest approach would have been just to remove the time limit of the ability. Essentially GAURENTEE the player X amount of manpower which cant be accessed right away.

With MU to MP conversion 1 to 3 with a penalty for the trade:

Id say 90 munitions gets 1 gaurenteed conscript or 170 gets 2

80 munitions for one gaurenteed ostruppen or 150 gets 2.

Would make it feel like less of a waste of resources if your opponent isn't cooperating by killing your troops fast enough. If needed, give it a long cooldown so it can't be spammed.

Beta rework versions are certainly more appealing than live versions, but I'll still advocate that old Rapid Conscription can work with just some tweaks, simply because of Merge on Conscripts and how cost efficient it is. Relief Infantry is a harder nut to crack.

I posted my proposed Rapid Conscription rework with implementation some months ago, when previous patch was still in preview. It received a lukewarm response, but I'll still stand by it:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/107429/rapid-conscription-rework-proposal-with-implementation

TL;DR:
- Lost models are retained to "reserve" between Rapid Conscription activations. Up to 18 models may be stored in reserve (exact number up to balance).
- If at least 6 models are in reserve, player may call-in a Conscript squad at no cost from HQ, losing 6 models from reserve.
- Player may call-in Conscript squads from reserve at any time, not necessarily when Rapid Conscription is active.

Interesting!

Making it less all or nothing would definitely make it more consistent and usable.
I still don’t think how it makes losses less punishing fits in to company of heroes, like one of the big changes to heavy tanks was making losing one hurt more.

Side note -
I am not sure, but am I the only one who doesn’t really want more squads late game? The extra squads usually over tax my micro, or cause too much manpower bleed, and in the end I feel like I would have been better off without the squad and spending the munitions on grenades

Interesting!

Making it less all or nothing would definitely make it more consistent and usable.
I still don’t think how it makes losses less punishing fits in to company of heroes, like one of the big changes to heavy tanks was making losing one hurt more.

It would be less punishing simply because you would get Manpower back for each dead model in form of Conscripts you can Merge. Conscripts are extremely cost efficient when Merged into elite infantry, especially long range squads like Guards or Airborne Guards. Yes, they will die more easily, but the penalty you get in effective health points is greatly outweighed by the exceptionally low cost and reinforcement speed.

Losing a tank is a huge blow - not only you're losing your entire investment, but also veterancy it gained along the way. Losing models - NOT entire squads - is much, much less impactful. Yes, it should be avoided when possible, but it's inevitable - otherwise we wouldn't have reinforcements as a mechanic.

Side note -
I am not sure, but am I the only one who doesn’t really want more squads late game? The extra squads usually over tax my micro, or cause too much manpower bleed, and in the end I feel like I would have been better off without the squad and spending the munitions on grenades

You're not alone. In general, when you finish your "infantry build" for a given match, you don't want any new squads - they strain your economy, take valuable popcap, and bring diminishing returns. However, when you lose a squad in the late game, you face a choice - should I rebuild it (or some other more late-game capable squad) and keep my capping presence or should I build something that will have immediate impact on the field (e.g. a tank)?
That's the idea behind my rework - the player decides when they want to call-in Conscripts from reserve. You lose a squad in the late game? Call-in a "free" Conscript squad to plug the hole in your infantry build. Want to reinforce some squads but lack Manpower? Call-in a "free" Conscript squad and fully merge it into existing squads to avoid clogging your Population.