Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

Really genius creating mainline replacement unit, but at the same time not wanting them to overshadow standart mainline.

They are supposed to be alternative, not complete replacement.

Dont make them mainline replacer in the first place then?

They are not?
Alternative is not the same as replacement.

Make them into some sort of OKW grenadiers version or supporting squad, like pathfinders.
Ppl will still use them as a mainline replacer in a teamgames (because its more forgiving) and in smaller gamemodes they will still suck ass with this current aproach.

JLI already exist.

What the point of thouse back and forth changes, if you are unable to finnaly decide the role and place of the unit.

To tone them down from team games, where they are as overpowered and oppressive as penals used to be before people learned how to actually fight them.

The unit has a very clear role.
Now it needs to be polished to fit that role without completely stealing it from volks.

Make them into some sort of OKW grenadiers version or supporting squad, like pathfinders.

In case you've forgot, there is a JLI, which is exactly superior version of pathfinder.

They are supposed to be alternative, not complete replacement.
They are not?
Alternative is not the same as replacement.

What is alternative? In standart game you rarely go for more then 4 squads of mainline, even going 5 can be considered too much. So you cant start with standart 4 volks build and later throw PFs because there is no point in doing so.

You objectively dont want to mix them with volks, because they are very weak early on. You dont want to replace volks with them in smaller gamemodes.

In this picture you really want to maybe just have 1 sqaud of them to either use flares or give them schrecks, not G43 because you missed the time to vet them and obersts arent too far away by that point.
Considering this, its not an alternative squad then, its a highly specific squad which you wont use more then 1 or 2, then why balance them as an alternative to volks begin with?

Good example of Alternative are ass.grens and assault sections. You either can mix them with standart mainline or you can play only with them, both ways works, both ways have advantages\disadvatages.

To tone them down from team games, where they are as overpowered and oppressive as penals used to be before people learned how to actually fight them.
The unit has a very clear role.
Now it needs to be polished to fit that role without completely stealing it from volks.

Well they took weapon slot from them, alright. This fixes absolutely nothing, because in teamgames PFs G43 blobs are OP af and not because they had one weapon slot and in smaller gamemodes they are still pointless. This is my exact point, that this balance flips are for nothing and solves nothing.

You either should make them into a proper replacement and balance upgrades\stats\abilities according to that or if you dont want them to be a replacement, then they should be made into something more appilling as a supporting\additional unit.

In case you've forgot, there is a JLI, which is exactly superior version of pathfinder.

Well and JLI arent getting their weapons for free and arent 0CP inf. But its not the point I was making, my point was to make Panzefusiliers into a recon squad or recon+AT squad.

Well and JLI arent getting their weapons for free and arent 0CP inf. But its not the point I was making, my point was to make Panzefusiliers into a recon squad or recon+AT squad.

Panzerfusillers from the patch that gave them their new role:

Panzerfusilliers

The way Panzerfusiliers are deployed has been changed to better match their role as an alternative mainline infantry to Volksgrenadiers. They will be slightly weaker than Volksgrenadiers at the start but have access to the Anti-Tank Rifle Grenades, slightly better combat veterancy, and more powerful upgrades, giving them increased power in the late game. This should make for interesting choices and compositions.

Now cost 280 MP
Now available at 0 CPs from the Regimental Headquarters.
Flare cost reduced from 45 to 35
Initial squad size from 6 to 5
Grenade AOE distance from 0.75/1.5/2.25 to 1/2/3
Timed ‘Sprint’ ability replaces Passive Sprint at veterancy 5. Sprint lasts for 5 seconds

Upgrade route 1 - Panzershrecks

Can be upgraded with two Panzerschrecks for 100 munitions. Disables AT Rifle Grenades. Locks out G43s.
Requires Mechanized or Battlegroup Headquarters to be deployed

Upgrade route 2 - Recon Package (G43s)

Recon package now increases squad size from 5 to 6.
Now takes up 1 weapon slot from 0.
Requires Mechanized or Battlegroup Headquarters to be deployed

They are even more versatile than riflemen for the same cost once you upgrade them. Point is their raw stats are weaker than volks but they have the pfaust and once you can upgrade them they simply and naturally become better than volks.

The problem with making them better early game is the same as always. What to do with volks and SP? And if you make them stronger early game then they´ll reach they pike sooner thus probably needing to nerf their top stats in order to maintain them balanced which lead to the same issue with volks atm, they fall down mid-game because Obers are here too.

The infantry problem with OKW rely within the sole existence of SP and Obers at the same time. Volks and PF are conditioned by those 2 units that force them to not be so good early game and not so good late game.
People always compare them to riflemen or even penals but USF and Soviet don´t have stock equivalent to SturmPioneer or Obers to complement them and that make a huge difference.

Panzerfusillers from the patch that gave them their new role:



They are even more versatile than riflemen for the same cost once you upgrade them. Point is their raw stats are weaker than volks but they have the pfaust and once you can upgrade them they simply and naturally become better than volks.

The problem with making them better early game is the same as always. What to do with volks and SP? And if you make them stronger early game then they´ll reach they pike sooner thus probably needing to nerf their top stats in order to maintain them balanced which lead to the same issue with volks atm, they fall down mid-game because Obers are here too.

The infantry problem with OKW rely within the sole existence of SP and Obers at the same time. Volks and PF are conditioned by those 2 units that force them to not be so good early game and not so good late game.
People always compare them to riflemen or even penals but USF and Soviet don´t have stock equivalent to SturmPioneer or Obers to complement them and that make a huge difference.

fact is, what weapon slot have to do with early game ?

When it comes to Pfussiliers, give them earlier sprint so they can actually close in on things they want to kill (Hell bump it from vet 5 to vet 1 if you want to go crazy, but Vet 2-3 would probably be the answer since that's about the time they need help.)

Pfussiliers are a little underwhelming right now. You've got a trash squad for the first 4-5 minutes who can't build cover and whose only purpose is to eat shit and snare ultra lights. Then you've got a great squad post upgrade for the next couple minutes that shreds infantry and has better snares vs LV's and from there it all goes downhill as they become outscaled by opposing vet and weapon upgrades since it becomes harder and harder to close in as more units hit the field and they all hit harder on approach which is usually mitigated by SMG/mobile aggression units having either sprint, smoke, or camo (Or some variation of the three).

They're a late game aggressive squad that doesn't scale into the lategame well enough in relation to what you have to pay to get them there. They don't need damage they just need something they can functionally use to apply the pressure they want given their damage profile. Vet 5 is just too late for sprint on this unit without other forms of pressure but otherwise I don't think they're necessarily fundamentally useless when compared to current Volks, they just have too many flaws that prevent them from being a suitable mainline replacement/sidegrade.

When it comes to Pfussiliers, give them earlier sprint so they can actually close in on things they want to kill

There's no advantage in closing in anywhere. The further you are from allied infantry the better it is

There's no advantage in closing in anywhere. The further you are from allied infantry the better it is

Oh yeah of course, you know except for Cons and Penals and Infantry Sections 3 out of the 4 Allied mainlines that lose to close range Pfussiliers. (Penals are roughly a wash but only if in green cover and you can't sprint on approach since you drop too hard.)

Really the only objectively incorrect time to use Pfussiliers is against Rifles where you're simply outclassed at your effective range vs Bars.

Oh yeah of course, you know except for Cons and Penals and Infantry Sections 3 out of the 4 Allied mainlines that lose to close range Pfussiliers. (Penals are roughly a wash but only if in green cover and you can't sprint on approach since you drop too hard.)

Really the only objectively incorrect time to use Pfussiliers is against Rifles where you're simply outclassed at your effective range vs Bars.

vet 5 pF and vet 3 penal at point blank range is literally up to the last man alive i did the test

the dps of the g43 is high for sure but they only have 3 not the whole squad, if u give bren to IS or give ppsh to cons they do lose

Oh yeah of course, you know except for Cons and Penals and Infantry Sections 3 out of the 4 Allied mainlines that lose to close range Pfussiliers. (Penals are roughly a wash but only if in green cover and you can't sprint on approach since you drop too hard.)

Really the only objectively incorrect time to use Pfussiliers is against Rifles where you're simply outclassed at your effective range vs Bars.

You live in a dream world, try even a single bar rifleman in cheat command upclose and see panzerfussies torn apart

You live in a dream world, try even a single bar rifleman in cheat command upclose and see panzerfussies torn apart

You live in a dream world of your own.
These rifles will most likely be alone or have RETs at their side, PFs will have spios, hmg and later on obers to back them up.

Stop comparing units like armies and supporting units behind them don't exist.

If the G43's take up both slots I don't believe that is intended as the most recent patch notes stated they were reverting all changing to make Fusiliers the same as how they are in the live game.

I think they are only reverting the stat changes. They said they are reverting them so that they don't overshadow volks, so it wouldn't make sense to give them back the weapon slot. Given that StGs still take up 2 slots for volks

as shown in testes the fire power of the 3 g43 rifle does not warrant 2 weapon slot,

if u want i can compare them to rifle bar but really it changes nothing to the point im making

the g43 upgrade is not worth 2 weapon slot

and if we go by your logic than a lot of weapons should be worth more than 1 weapon slot

You do realize g43s aren't the only thing that upgrade gives you... Right?

the 7 men upgrade adds 1 more rifle 1 more model reduced reinforce cost and time,reduced vet requirement and cost 50 mun+ 18mp cost 1 weapon slot

You do realize conscripts only get 1 weapon slot to begin with right? In exchange they are more survivable and provide great utility. Sound familiar?

There is absolutely no reason fusiliers should be able to pick up another weapon after upgrading to g43s. If you're actually suggesting they're not good enough with that upgrade already, then you're clinically insane. And yes, it is worth the cost

I think they are only reverting the stat changes. They said they are reverting them so that they don't overshadow volks, so it wouldn't make sense to give them back the weapon slot. Given that StGs still take up 2 slots for volks

You do realize g43s aren't the only thing that upgrade gives you... Right?


You do realize conscripts only get 1 weapon slot to begin with right? In exchange they are more survivable and provide great utility. Sound familiar? It should. For christs sake what's so hard to understand

the 7 men upgrade adds 1 more rifle 1 more model reduced reinforce cost and time,reduced vet requirement and cost 50 mun+ 18mp cost 1 weapon slot

the recon packages, adds 1 g 43 rifle and REPLACES 2 normal rifle for g 43, adds 1 man and increase sight range by 5 costs 90 mun and 25 mp cost 2 weapon slots

just so u understand before the "REWORK" of the PF the upgrade did not add 1 more man as the squad was 6 men , they cut down the 6th man cause too op 6 men sherck tank hunter would dominate in the mod team mind and the upgrade was 0 weapon slots

the whole point of the rework

Panzerfusilliers

The way Panzerfusiliers are deployed has been changed to better match their role as an alternative mainline infantry to Volksgrenadiers. They will be slightly weaker than Volksgrenadiers at the start but have access to the Anti-Tank Rifle Grenades, slightly better combat veterancy, and more powerful upgrades, giving them increased power in the late game. This should make for interesting choices and compositions.

the upgrade was always to mind the reduced squad number cause of the Shrek

the team team even said it in the this forum that the cut squad member was the only solution to let them have both upgrades without being op and even then they added a weapon slot from 0 to 1

u really want them to have no slot ? ok just cut the cost to 40-50 mun and reduce to reinforce cost of the squad itself

at this point just return them before the rework and put them at 1 cp like recon section

be sure the read the whole post

be sure the read the whole post

I did read the whole thing... Just didn't quote it for format (see how you quoted part of my post that wasn't even addressed to you? called saving space)

Is the fusilier upgrade locked behind t4? Are you on crack? You compare their costs without comparing timing?

vet 5 pF and vet 3 penal at point blank range is literally up to the last man alive i did the test

the dps of the g43 is high for sure but they only have 3 not the whole squad, if u give bren to IS or give ppsh to cons they do lose

Yeah that's true for Penals, compared to Volks where Penals win the engagement at every range by a clear mile that is a significant step up since game situations involve multiple units you can apply less help to that fight to ensure a victory and if your opponent wants to ensure he doesn't lose he needs to provide his own support there rather than letting the Penals win as if against Volks. But like I said the major problem is getting the Pfussiliers into position to take that fight which is why earlier Sprint would be helpful.

Brens gain almost 0 damage over Enfields at close range due to reverse damage falloff so not really. Again, if they had sprint the Bren's would have less opportunity to deal damage on the close-in and the Pfussiliers could hit effective combat distance to force the Sections off or wipe them if the opponent slips up on micro. Compared to Volks here this is an outright win for Pfussiliers since Volks are dominated by Sections fullstop and have no way to close in effectively but you still go JLI 100% of the time vs Brits if you don't want to hate your life the entire game since JLI just take away all advantages Sections have so probably irrelevant but maybe early sprint could provide Pfussiliers some merit? (Longshot especially compared to JLI but worth considering even if it turns out wrong)

PPSH Cons were a meme and still are a meme. You don't fight SMG units at close range and even if you did Pfussiliers could deal a fat chunk of damage just outside of the PPSH Cons effective range before leaving compared to Volks so they're still better in that department. The answer to this is still multiple units supporting each other to bleed the SMG unit out of effectively dealing damage since they're helpless outside of 10m. Be it Volks or Pfusilliers, irrelevant point.

Thing is if all you do is compare 1v1 infantry fights without the context of a full game you're going to come to incorrect conclusions on the basis of a lack of complete information about how all the pieces of the game fit together and I see that so much here with people extrapolating problems out of isolated tests that don't really apply to actual game situations. 1v1 tests can be a good way of gleaning basic information about how units perform in a vacuum vs opposition and compared to equivalent units of a faction but any more than that and you're usually way off course without proper understanding of what to expect in a real game.

I did read the whole thing... Just didn't quote it for format. Your point is absolutely nonsense, for the reasons I just said

want it to occupy the whole slots ? ok just price it the same as cons if so, i mean as u can see in my post

1)the cost of fusi are always kept in mind with the 6 men upgrade that's why they cost 25 mp to reinforce and have pitiful dps until upgrade (worse than cons at 270 cost)

2) the cost of the upgrade is 90 munition and 25 mp vs 50 munition and 18 mp which is almost double
and as u can see in my post the "utility" is 5 sight range which is not even that much compared to the bonuses that cons upgrade has , so it'is quite clear it's a dps upgrade instead but it very low dps increase for the price as they lose to penal at almost all ranges but close which is a 50/50

3) see if this logic make sense for you
"since rifle men will be op with 5 men zook we will reduce the normal squad size to 4 men and decrease the cost to 270"
"we will add an upgrade that will add a bar and 1 more man for 100 mun that applies 2 slot now since we realize the cost is not comparable to other upgrade that were not designed for squad that have to be reduced in size for convoluted design"
"btw we keep the reinforce cost the same cause obviously we designed the squad with the extra men in mind, even tho it does not respect the value of the squad when you buy it, only when u buy the specific upgrade that was base before and added multiple restriction for no reason that goes even against what we designed the "rework" in the first place"


honestly at this point return to the old design with the old vet bonuses no shreck and locked at 1 cp like recon section

You live in a dream world of your own.
These rifles will most likely be alone or have RETs at their side, PFs will have spios, hmg and later on obers to back them up.

Stop comparing units like armies and supporting units behind them don't exist.

What are you even talking about? What does that even mean? What has Obersoldatem to do with the most effective way to engage riflemen with panzerfusiliers?

You live in a dream world, try even a single bar rifleman in cheat command upclose and see panzerfussies torn apart

Reading comprehension. Lets try this one again.

Really the only objectively incorrect time to use Pfussiliers is against Rifles where you're simply outclassed at your effective range vs Bars.

Reading comprehension. Lets try this one again.

Ok? Try it with penals or bren/bolstered IS at close range and see how long Panzerfusiliers last