Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

What are you even talking about? What does that even mean? What has Obersoldatem to do with the most effective way to engage riflemen with panzerfusiliers?

Its clear.
Keep rereading the post until you'll get it.

Is the fusilier upgrade locked behind t4? Are you on crack? You compare their costs without comparing timing?

are u really talking about timing when the PF come literally crippled being worse than cons until upgrade while costing 270 MP ?

u have to decide, is the upgrade like other upgrade so it should reflect only the upgrade value so u reduce the reinforce and and staring cost of PF or is the upgrade design to be the standard of the squad so the squad reflect the cost and reinforce that it has when it's 6 men ?

u can't have the cake and eat it too

1 of them has to go

Ok? Try it with penals or bren/bolstered IS at close range and see how long Panzerfusiliers last

Pfussiliers demolish Sections at close range (5 or 6 guys left every time) and trade roughly equal with Penals.

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Volks by comparison are absolutely devastated by both of these squads in similar situations (Volks can beat Sections at close range but bleed significantly harder to do it and have no effective way of closing the distance) Again, the problem is getting the Pfussiliers into these positions where they can win fights more effectively than Volks so they have the desired late game performance that you're paying for in both early unit strength and resources, hence giving them earlier sprint.

u can't have the cake and eat it too

Neither can you.

You can't have amazing early game infantry with great late game scaling.
Pick one.

If PFs alone are too weak alone early game, stop spamming them like braindead monkey and mix them with volks.

Its clear.
Keep rereading the post until you'll get it.

No, you are not making any sense. Years of forum warmongering for a game you don't even play must have taken its toll because you just mentioned a bunch of units that have nothing to do with Panzerfusiliers to claim how Panzerfusiliers are somehow good at close range against bar riflemen

You can't have amazing early game infantry with great late game scaling.
Pick one.

2 allied factions have it, and both cost less than Panzerfusiliers.

>inb4 tech costs for upgrades that actually amount to equal of axis tech costs

Neither can you.

You can't have amazing early game infantry with great late game scaling.
Pick one.

If PFs alone are too weak alone early game, stop spamming them like braindead monkey and mix them with volks.

kat are u for real ? they reverted the buff to early game, they just kept the 2 slot

did u not read the patch notes ?

i not for early game buff, where have i ever said that ?

if the patch says reverted and they did not revert them there must be a problem right ?

2 allied factions have it, and both cost less than Panzerfusiliers.

Have you noticed how none of these 2 allied factions have extremely powerful engineers in early game and have no elite infantry with monstrous single model DPS by mid game, or don't have access to very cheap, very effective HMG?

Have you noticed how none of these 2 allied factions have extremely powerful engineers in early game and have no elite infantry with monstrous single model DPS by mid game

And that's why they don't have a single 300 mp unit overtasked to repair their tanks. Panzerfusiliers unfortunately happen to have an higher cost, and that cost in one way or another should be reflected
It's a doctrinal option, just like Soviets have a doctrinal options to field tanks that outdo both in AI and AT Axis generalist counterpart.
>or don't have access to very cheap, very effective HMG?
The 50 cal is one of the best hmg in game, but that's besides the point.

are u really talking about timing when the PF come literally crippled being worse than cons until upgrade while costing 270 MP ?

What the fuck does this have to do with whether or not they should be able to pick up a weapon after the upgrade? Absolutely nothing. The opening of those factions is completely different

I only pointed out that you cannot compare those upgrades without talking about timing. You are the one who made the terrible comparison in the first place. And you continue to do it by comparing them to Riflemen now which is hilarious

u have to decide, is the upgrade like other upgrade so it should reflect only the upgrade value so u reduce the reinforce and and staring cost of PF or is the upgrade design to be the standard of the squad so the squad reflect the cost and reinforce that it has when it's 6 men ?

I only have to decide this if I agree with you that the upgrade isn't worth it. I don't. The upgrade is fine, and is absolutely worth the cost. You cannot compare it 7 man cons when you need to wait until t4 to get that upgrade.... It's pretty simple

Are you under the impression fusiliers are bad? Because they are incredibly popular in team games, how can you possibly think they need ANY help

And that's why they don't have a single 300 mp unit overtasked to repair their tanks. Panzerfusiliers unfortunately happen to have an higher cost, and that cost in one way or another should be reflected
It's a doctrinal option, just like Soviets have a doctrinal options to field tanks that outdo both in AI and AT Axis generalist counterpart.
>or don't have access to very cheap, very effective HMG?
The 50 cal is one of the best hmg in game, but that's besides the point.

Please explain to me in detail, what sturms are overtasked with repairing within first 3 minutes of the game? After that time PFs start getting upgrades.

And by the time tanks arrive, it will blow your mind, obers arrive too to take over infantry support from them.

What the fuck does this have to do with whether or not they should be able to pick up a weapon after the upgrade? Absolutely nothing

I only pointed out that you cannot compare those upgrades without talking about timing. You are the one who made the terrible comparison in the first place


I only have to decide this if I agree with you that the upgrade isn't worth it. I don't. The upgrade is fine, and is absolutely worth the cost

Are you under the impression fusiliers are bad? Because they are incredibly popular in team games, how can you possibly think they need help

dude ok, i want you and kat to point me out WHERE i have said PF need buffs in this thread especially to eraly game, im pointing out that

1) patch notes says they reverted they changes and they did not

2) there is no reason for the 2 slot since the squad is designed with the upgrade is mind and is the reason of their overpriced tag, either they are supposed to be weak early and strong late or the opposite

3)since u both don't understand this, in team game u might not believe it, but the game last a lot longer than 1 vs 1 so by paying a bit of extra price early game PF have more pay off late game and the doc used in team game both contain PF so yes they are used more than volks in team game as they care more for the late game than their map presence, same reason we don't see much ostruppen in team game, should they give them ton of buff since we never see them ? Even if it's clear the design is for 1 vs 1 ?

Please explain to me in detail, what sturms are overtasked with repairing within first 3 minutes of the game? After that time PFs start getting upgrades.

Placing wire and fighting their infantry. Also early mines unless you want to be forced for a puma

And by the time tanks arrive, it will blow your mind, obers arrive too to take over infantry support from them.

But I thought they were supposed to be great in late game! That's curious, Panzerfusiliers are supposed to suck in early game to be good at late game, and at the same be shredded by 1 bar riflemen because Obers exist

dude ok, i want you and kat to point me out WHERE i have said PF need buffs in this thread especially to eraly game, im point out that

Huh?

1) patch notes says they reverted they changes and they did not

Yeah they reverted the buffs, because they realized that was a terrible idea

2) there is no reason for the 2 slot since the squad is designed with the upgrade is mind and is the reason of their overpriced tag, wither they are supposed to be weak early and strong late or the opposite

Sure there is. The squad is plenty powerful enough without being able to pick up another weapon after upgrade. That's the reason right there

Just like cons are good enough only being able to pick up one dropped weapon. They lost their 2nd weapon slot long before 7 man upgrade was added. Because they didn't need the ability to pick up 2 dropped weapons. 1 was enough, even though they don't get an upgrade (at the time)

3)since u both don't understand this, in team game u might not believe it but the game last a lot longer than 1 vs 1 so by paying a bit of extra price early game PF have more pay off late game and the doc used in team game both contain PF so yes they are used more than volks in team game as they care more for they late game than their map presence , same reason we don't see much ostruppen in team game, should they give them ton of buff since we never see them ? even if it's clear the design is for 1 vs 1 ?

I'm well aware of the differences between 1v1 and team games stug. Fusiliers are practically meta in team games, they should not receive any buffs. Even cost reductions

Volks are what needs help. Not fusiliers. They don't need a damn thing at all. Even slight buffs/cost changes to fusiliers will just kill volks even more. Which is exactly why those changes were reverted

Placing wire

Are you trying to wire off your half of the map completely or what?

fighting their infantry.

So... you have strongest engineer in the game helping PFs, which is what I was guiding you towards, I'm glad you came to that conclusion yourself with a little bit of help, that was exactly my point.

Also early mines unless you want to be forced for a puma

If you go for early mines, you don't go for PFs.
Mines will not kill light tanks and PFs can snare lights just fine, because contrary to volks, they start with AT nade unlocked and unrestricted.
Once you leave shit tier ranking, you'll also start seeing good players using puppchen against things like M3 or UC.

But I thought they were supposed to be great in late game!

They are.
Show Spoiler

That's curious, Panzerfusiliers are supposed to suck in early game to be good at late game, and at the same be shredded by 1 bar riflemen because Obers exist

Nah, just one newbie who doesn't understand their place in balance and in OKW army, what they compare to and what they are supposed to be better from.

Panzerfusiliers are supposed to suck in early game to be good at late game, and at the same be shredded by 1 bar riflemen

?

?

You want me to open cheat command and post screens of the result I got (post revert)? They absolutely get shredded by 1 bar rifleman even at 35 range
Just 1 out of 6 panzerfusiliers squad won at 3 models left

Huh?


Yeah they reverted the buffs, because they realized that was a terrible idea

they said

Panzerfusiliers
We are reverting the changes to Panzerfusiliers to prevent them from completely overshadowing Volksgrenadiers, particularly in team games.

Kar98k and G43 weapon changes reverted
Cost changes reverted

>We are reverting the changes to Panzerfusiliers

im quite sure it means all changes

Sure there is. The squad is plenty powerful enough without being able to pick up another weapon after upgrade. That's the reason right there

Just like cons are good enough only being able to pick up one dropped weapon. They lost their 2nd weapon slot long before 7 man upgrade was added. Because they didn't need the ability to pick up 2 dropped weapons...

and they are powerful enough cause u must have done some testes right i mean u are not pulling all this out of your ass cause it's "muh opinion" right ?
i mean why don't u tell me their power since u must know it quite well, they are powerful enough right ? What do they beat ? Cause at least to me it seems they in power are worse than penal
btw please dont' spin it again with utility u just said power, don't switch thing to make them more confusing

cons lost the upgrade because they have only 1 weapons slot as a squad (probably cause 7 men LMG slot would probably be too much with the 30% cd bonus)
just so u know i actually disagree with them only having a weapon slot but i believe it was done cause STV exist (again dumb decisions made for design purpose)

same for volks having 0 weapon slot after stg which is basically a bar (and i dislike the STG weapon profile personally as well and would switch to have mp 40s by default upgrade instead)

I'm well aware of the differences between 1v1 and team games stug. Fusiliers are practically meta in team games, they should not receive any buffs. Even cost reductions

Volks are what needs help. Not fusiliers. They don't need a damn thing at all

mhh did you just respond to your self ?

>Volks are what needs help. Not fusiliers. They don't need a damn thing at all

so u understand that volks are weak and not used in team game that's why people use PF and u say to not touch PF but at the same time says nerf PF and don't touch volks

you are contradicting yourself and responding your own question

"why people use PF in team game ?"

"volks are weak and people prefer the late game so they use PF, PF don't need a damn thing at all"

Are you trying to wire off your half of the map completely or what?


So... you have strongest engineer in the game helping PFs, which is what I was guiding you towards, I'm glad you came to that conclusion yourself with a little bit of help, that was exactly my point.


If you go for early mines, you don't go for PFs.
Mines will not kill light tanks and PFs can snare lights just fine, because contrary to volks, they start with AT nade unlocked and unrestricted.
Once you leave shit tier ranking, you'll also start seeing good players using puppchen against things like M3 or UC.



They are.
Show Spoiler

Nah, just one newbie who doesn't understand their place in balance and in OKW army, what they compare to and what they are supposed to be better from.

Ok, so Panzerfusiliers are supposed to suck at early game to scale marginally better than a unit that notoriously scale like SHIT, while costing 10 mp less than Riflemen that bully them easily with a double bar (40 munitions more) and win with a single bar (20 munitions less). This while Volksgrenadiers scale worse than Conscripts despite having 5 mp higher reinforce cost and 20 mp higher starting cost.

So ultimately your judgment on how well Panzerfusiliers supposedly scale as trade off for their underwhelming starting performances is a direct comparison with the worst mainline in terms of scaling?

Ok, so Panzerfusiliers are supposed to suck at early game to scale marginally better than a unit that notoriously scale like SHIT, while costing 10 mp less than Riflemen that bully them easily with a double bar (40 munitions more) and win with a single bar (20 munitions less). This while Volksgrenadiers scale worse than Conscripts despite having 5 mp higher reinforce cost and 20 mp higher starting cost.

So ultimately your judgment on how well Panzerfusiliers supposedly scale as trade off for their underwhelming starting performances is a direct comparison with the worst mainline in terms of scaling?

Why is it so hard for you to understand that OKW is not USF nor soviets, but its a 3rd, completely different faction with completely different units, completely different internal balance and completely different unit interactions?

Are PFs a considerable upgrade to volks in late game? Because their whole point is to be considrable upgrade to volks in late game.

Yes or no?