Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

No they can't because their reinforce cost stays the same

That's why it has lol on budget lol

Also shame that command p4 isn't getting light artillery, it would actually revive dead commanders like the 2nd elefant commander as they will have munition sink.

how is it worse? Dps increase is not all their is to an upgrade. 7thm man is redgard fine by most, and insanely op according to some.

Vsl adresses a certain weakness of grens. Survivability and field presence. They dont need nor should be 5 men terminators, ost has plenty strong ai options already. And 4 men lng grens do well at range esp shen supported.

Indevidual grenadier models are very strong imo, strongest out of all mainlines again imo. just slapping one extra k98 in their has a lot more impact then slapping a conscript model with mosin in their on a cons squad.

Problem is they didn't slap one extra k98.

how is it worse? Dps increase is not all their is to an upgrade. 7thm man is redgard fine by most, and insanely op according to some.

Vsl adresses a certain weakness of grens. Survivability and field presence. They dont need nor should be 5 men terminators, ost has plenty strong ai options already. And 4 men lng grens do well at range esp shen supported.

Indevidual grenadier models are very strong imo, strongest out of all mainlines again imo. just slapping one extra k98 in their has a lot more impact then slapping a conscript model with mosin in their on a cons squad.

Because it is, the dps increase is minimal compared to mg42 and unlike the conscipts update their reinforce price doesn't change

Grenadiers VSL is the worst upgrade in game for infantry right now

You are trading dps for... bleeding more?

Because it is, the dps increase is minimal compared to mg42 and unlike the conscipts update their reinforce price doesn't change

Grenadiers VSL is the worst upgrade in game for infantry right now

You are trading dps for... bleeding more?

The bleeding more is reduced by the free med kits and recc acc. This saves mp (and muni) in the same sence as reduced reinforce for 7th man. Who bleed the most models by far in the game. For them it makes sence. Soviets is mp starved the most.

Bleeding mp for more field presence isent bad. It translates into more recources in fuel and muni as you will probaly hold more or take more ground.

Conscripts dont get an lmg or cant get svt or ppsh with 7th man. It would be to strong. Wich the old vsl was as proven.

I'm not the one saying it's bad other people are. And so I wasn't sure if it is bad or good because I'm low xp. If it is still a viable choice great! That's exactly what I'm hoping for. It just happens to he my favorite gren upgrade so I would be sad if it is not good.

I think a lot of people undervalue the field presence it can give and the muni and mp it can save with free med kits. Its not as noticable as raw dps.

The bleeding more is reduced by the free med kits and recc acc. This saves mp (and muni) in the same sence as reduced reinforce for 7th man. Who bleed the most models by far in the game. For them it makes sence. Soviets is mp starved the most.

Bleeding mp for more field presence isent bad. It translates into more recources in fuel and muni as you will probaly hold more or take more ground.

Conscripts dont get an lmg or cant get svt or ppsh with 7th man. It would be to strong. Wich the old vsl was as proven.

For 150 mp and 60 munitions you can have infinite healing

VSL is a huge handicap on your squad. If the squad accomodates a 5th man as trade off for less firepower, it should have the reinforce cost changed accordingly to be less expensive to reinforce per model, because each and every model is devalued, it's not rocket science

I think a lot of people undervalue the field presence it can give and the muni and mp it can save with free med kits. Its not as noticable as raw dps.

No, nobody undervalues it, but it's not worth regardless, especially because you WILL need to bring your grenadiers back to HQ to reinforce where they will have some of the longest reinforce time of all mainline infantry, so a bunker would heal them regardless

The bleeding more is reduced by the free med kits and recc acc. This saves mp (and muni) in the same sence as reduced reinforce for 7th man. Who bleed the most models by far in the game. For them it makes sence. Soviets is mp starved the most.

Bleeding mp for more field presence isent bad. It translates into more recources in fuel and muni as you will probaly hold more or take more ground.

Conscripts dont get an lmg or cant get svt or ppsh with 7th man. It would be to strong. Wich the old vsl was as proven.

VSL Grens aren't worth it at all right now. They are absolutely terrible in practice because they don't win fights like MG42 Grens do. They attempt to have a universal average effective range, but this ends up with them losing fights at pretty much all ranges because they don't have a strength in combat meaning not only do they lose map control, but they bleed harder and take longer to reinforce due to having extra models.

Free Medkits are nice, but they don't actually allow you to skip Med Bunkers because your Pios and your Stormtroopers and your MG42 still need to heal and you can't spend all your mainline's time healing other units with a single target ability. If this ability was akin to the Infantry Section group heal it would be significantly better for VSL's ability to skip medics.

Conscript 7-Man upgrade is good because it doesn't have better competition, it bolsters their strength which is fighting from Green Cover at distance, and it provides other unique benefits to Cons such as better ability to merge, cheaper reinforce cost and faster vet. VSL Grens don't fulfill the same role having to directly compete with MG42 Grens which is the premier distance fighting upgrade so it attempts to turn Grens into some Jack of all Trades squad which ultimately doesn't work, and it only provides a singular minor benefit in free medkits while having several weaknesses such as the aforementioned heavier bleed, slower reinforce time, and the lack of damage output that the MG42 upgrade would provide.

Also shame that command p4 isn't getting light artillery, it would actually revive dead commanders like the 2nd elefant commander as they will have munition sink.

Don't sleep on the Command P4. It's quite good vs infantry and giving it Mark Vehicle is quite a good buff to give it some relevancy against armor.

Free Medkits are nice, but they don't actually allow you to skip Med Bunkers because your Pios and your Stormtroopers and your MG42 still need to heal and you can't spend all your mainline's time healing other units with a single target ability. If this ability was akin to the Infantry Section group heal it would be significantly better for VSL's ability to skip medics.

They actually do work because Stormtroopers get self heal rather soon, it's actually one of the few parts of the redesign of German Infantry Doctrine that actually worked

Conscript 7-Man upgrade is good because it doesn't have better competition, it bolsters their strength which is fighting from Green Cover at distance, and it provides other unique benefits to Cons such as better ability to merge, cheaper reinforce cost and faster vet.

7 men conscripts are good for a variety of reasons, mainly because their reinforce cost go do, SVT aside they are actually better than any doctrinal upgrade, but also because vet 3 bonuses for conscripts are outright broken and should have been toned down a while ago after the unit got buffed in the last patches

VSL Grens don't fulfill the same role having to directly compete with MG42 Grens which is the premier distance fighting upgrade so it attempts to turn Grens into some Jack of all Trades squad which ultimately doesn't work, and it only provides a singular minor benefit in free medkits while having several weaknesses such as the aforementioned heavier bleed, slower reinforce time, and the lack of damage output that the MG42 upgrade would provide.

VSL would work if it granted reinforce MP cost and reinforce time reductions.

No, nobody undervalues it, but it's not worth regardless, especially because you WILL need to bring your grenadiers back to HQ to reinforce where they will have some of the longest reinforce time of all mainline infantry, so a bunker would heal them regardless

VSL Grens aren't worth it at all right now. They are absolutely terrible in practice because they don't win fights like MG42 Grens do. They attempt to have a universal average effective range, but this ends up with them losing fights at pretty much all ranges because they don't have a strength in combat meaning not only do they lose map control, but they bleed harder and take longer to reinforce due to having extra models.

Free Medkits are nice, but they don't actually allow you to skip Med Bunkers because your Pios and your Stormtroopers and your MG42 still need to heal and you can't spend all your mainline's time healing other units with a single target ability. If this ability was akin to the Infantry Section group heal it would be significantly better for VSL's ability to skip medics.

Conscript 7-Man upgrade is good because it doesn't have better competition, it bolsters their strength which is fighting from Green Cover at distance, and it provides other unique benefits to Cons such as better ability to merge, cheaper reinforce cost and faster vet. VSL Grens don't fulfill the same role having to directly compete with MG42 Grens which is the premier distance fighting upgrade so it attempts to turn Grens into some Jack of all Trades squad which ultimately doesn't work, and it only provides a singular minor benefit in free medkits while having several weaknesses such as the aforementioned heavier bleed, slower reinforce time, and the lack of damage output that the MG42 upgrade would provide.

The reinforce time i didnt take into account. I get the impact of that now. Maybe reinforce time reduction and/or a discount to reinforce cost can be added instead of raw dps wich was proven to strong.
One vollying a model at long range often deciding the fight then and there in most cases. Its to powerfull for a 240 mp squad imo.

Buddy, Why do you not think through some of the things you say. So you are saying rifles are OP???

The same rifles that do 8 dmg? The same rifles that do NOT have 75% moving accuracy? The same rifles who need 2 full volleys to deal enough damage to kill a model?
Did you meant THESE rifles? Or some other kind of 16-14 dmg, rapid firing, 75% FOTM accuracy allied squad which I am not aware of?

I don't think you have thought through some of the things you said there.

Don't sleep on the Command P4. It's quite good vs infantry and giving it Mark Vehicle is quite a good buff to give it some relevancy against armor.

but Command p4 lose blitzkrieg right? and the mark target is for more accuracy I heard and not like the command panther mark or the soviet one.

but Command p4 lose blitzkrieg right? and the mark target is for more accuracy I heard and not like the command panther mark or the soviet one.

Command P4 Mark Target provides Penetration and Accuracy according to the tooltip. Upon doing some testing I'm actually incredulous to find that the Command P4 is really not that much better vs Infantry than just a P4, and if the P4 has a pintle it's pretty much equivalent in ttk on most infantry. I think that should probably be buffed for the Command P4. Since it only costs 20 less Fuel and as will be mentioned below, doesn't provide enough of a benefit for either the P4 or Infantry, it seems almost useless if you decide to go Tier 3 over Tier 4 honestly.

The P4 Command Tank does lose Blitzkrieg, but also provides passive damage resistance which does affect both Vehicles and Infantry while allowing a P4 to go from 4 hit to 5 hit against other Mediums, but at the same time if I can afford a Command Tank, why would I not simply wait for another P4 to double my effective health and damage instead. While as for the Infantry Damage Reduction (10%) I barely felt any relevance. It seemed to not even do anything most of the time which was a touch disappointing to see. The main benefit the Command P4 seems to provide is the smoke shell, which while good, does not make up for it's effectively terrible performance across the board elsewhere.

In tests against Heavies with the P4 the Command Tank didn't help all that much either even with Mark Vehicle. A P4 and the Command Tank together both lost quite badly while the Heavy had ample time to leave at any moment during the fight given the parameters but generally came out on top killing both the Command Tank and the P4. (Comet and IS-2)

The Panther seemed to have the biggest Impact when it came to the Command Tank. The Command Tank provided the Panther an extra hit (From 6 to 7) and allowed a weakness to be filled by providing a role as a Tank with consistent AI damage while allowing the Panther to comfortably force away a Comet and slug effectively with an IS-2 if needed. Although I find this not particularly appealing as far as engagements go. The Panther can already beat the Comet in a straight fight most of the time, while being able to leave into AT Guns if RNG strikes, while the IS-2 has such pitiful range and speed that the Panther can often just fight from outside it's boundaries to begin with negating the need for slugging, denying it's ability to participate at all.

I think I'd like to retract my statement on the Command P4. In practice is felt decent, but from raw tests it just doesn't do anything that couldn't be done better with another P4 or even an Ostwind in Tier 3, while Tier 4 the benefit you gain is almost negligible ultimately. I feel as if more needs to be done to provide the Command P4 some benefit to justify it in some fashion. I personally would simply scratch the Infantry Damage reduction because it doesn't effectively do anything in practice, and place that benefit somewhere else, be it in the Mark Target ability which could have a useful hand vs Heavies (Higher Pen chance, or even giving the recon plane to the Command P4's Mark Target.) Or perhaps give it a better gun vs Infantry to allow it to actually step into a stronger AI role, akin to a weaker AI Ostwind that can provide At capability in a minor form. The only things I would recommend against are more Damage Reduction because that would become very obnoxious very quickly, especially with Panthers and Brumbars or even Infantry if strong enough.

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One can start by lowering Pop/XP value and changing vet bonuses to better feet the role.

The gun could use changes. One could try to firing mode indirect firing similar to Stug-E (with less range) and oen direct firing hollow charge rounds.

One can start by lowering Pop/XP value and changing vet bonuses to better feet the role.

The gun could use changes. One could try to firing mode indirect firing similar to Stug-E (with less range) and oen direct firing hollow charge rounds.

I don't believe the Vet needs to be changed, either the vet rate or the bonuses themselves. It's not particularly difficult to vet and is consistent with the standard P4 and the Stug G/E. Not only that but it provides bonuses that do still positively affect the P4 Command Tank (Or rather, it doesn't provide any irrelevant or quirky buffs in it's veterancy.)

Honestly I think the best solution would to simply improve the firing rate of the main gun by a small amount. Adding a brand new ability is messy and requires a lot of work that can be solved in a much easier way while also intruding on the role of the Stug-E. Considering the absolute negligible impact of the Command P4 in an armor fight (Terrible Pen, halved damage) I can't imagine this would impact armor fights too much and would probably be fine, especially if traded for the irrelevant infantry damage reduction.

I don't believe the Vet needs to be changed, either the vet rate or the bonuses themselves. It's not particularly difficult to vet and is consistent with the standard P4 and the Stug G/E. Not only that but it provides bonuses that do still positively affect the P4 Command Tank (Or rather, it doesn't provide any irrelevant or quirky buffs in it's veterancy.)

The C.PzIV is closer to Ostwind than it is to PZIV. Pop/XP/Value should reflect that.

Vet bonuses should tailor made for the units role instead of generic bonuses.

Honestly I think the best solution would to simply improve the firing rate of the main gun by a small amount. Adding a brand new ability is messy and requires a lot of work that can be solved in a much easier way while also intruding on the role of the Stug-E. Considering the absolute negligible impact of the Command P4 in an armor fight (Terrible Pen, halved damage) I can't imagine this would impact armor fights too much and would probably be fine, especially if traded for the irrelevant infantry damage reduction.

The gun is identical to that of Stug-E it is quite easy to implement.

Why not replace the free medkits bonus for VSL grens with something else then? Especially now that medkits are even cheaper, this ability is a bit redundant imo

So are we getting the Osttruppen changes reverted? Because no patch notes for a week and a half has me a bit nervous.

So are we getting the Osttruppen changes reverted? Because no patch notes for a week and a half has me a bit nervous.

You will count on Osttruppen it seems.