Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 08:52 AMKlement Pikhtura

75% less damage and slightly less do not sound like a big deal, except Stug-G has enough pen to deal with stock mediums and pen TDs, SU-76 is clearly lacks in this regard, especially vs OKW. Also Su-76 kills p4 with 5 penetrating shot, Stug needs only 4 to kill 640 HP tank. If you add armor values of P4j, then SU-76 needs to fire 7 to 8 shots to kill it. On top of it SU-76 dies with 3 AT shots, Stug with 4.

Not sure if all that 10 range worth it.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 07:22 AMZeroZeroNi

The SU-76 is cheaper, has more range better fire rate and slightly less pen and about 75% damage. I'd say they are on par with each other.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 08:52 AMKlement Pikhtura

75% less damage and slightly less do not sound like a big deal, except Stug-G has enough pen to deal with stock mediums and pen TDs, SU-76 is clearly lacks in this regard, especially vs OKW. Also Su-76 kills p4 with 5 penetrating shot, Stug needs only 4 to kill 640 HP tank. If you add armor values of P4j, then SU-76 needs to fire 7 to 8 shots to kill it. On top of it SU-76 dies with 3 AT shots, Stug with 4.

Not sure if all that 10 range worth it.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 08:59 AMZeroZeroNi

su76 has a max range pen 170 and ost p4 has frontal of 180 that's 94.4% pen dude from a range of 60. The su76 also has a faster reload of 4.15(avg) compared to stugs 5(avg). considering the su76 is only 75 fuel. I'd say it's on par with the stug in terms bang for your buck AT power. Considering Allied Mediums are barely cost more than the stug while su76 is far cheaper than ost p4 and evn more so then okw p4.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 08:57 AMHannibal

Range and cost is all it has. ROF is equal to worse, penetration is also worse considering its targets and the reduced damage is a huge issue since the unit needs at last 5 shots plus snare or 6 shots on its own to kill a medium tank. Considering also a slightly worse accuracy a Su76 will probably need about 7 shots or 33,1 secs to kill an OST P4.
Stug will likely need about 5 shots or 21,5 secs to kill a medium.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 09:08 AMVipper

If one want to compare SU-76vsPzIV with the Stug vs T-34/76 one also has to keep in mind of the cost difference between the TD and the Tank it is facing.

SU-76 is cost efficient TD that can also barrage.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 09:12 AMZeroZeroNi

OK, i say'd it was on par in terms of price to performance with the stug. It costs less so it also performs less.

Like what more do you want form a 75f vehicle
60 max range(stug has 50)
170 max range pen(stug has 180)
3.875-4.375 s Reload(stug has 4.5-5.5 s reload)
fuel difference with mediums p4 45 and p4j 65 (stug has t34 0, sherman and cromwell 20)
fuel difference with special mediums Panther 110 (stug has t34/85 40, easy8 55, sherman-76 35, comet 95)

I don't know for me they look on par in terms of bang for buck.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 09:16 AMHannibal

Barrage ability aside (Stug has a stun shot), the StuG is more efficient.
Only and really only in OST vs SOB matchups they are roughly equal at vet0, while the StuG improves at vet3.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 09:17 AMVipper

Stug is probably more efficient but that does not make it more cost efficient nor does it make SU-76 a bad TD.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 09:12 AMZeroZeroNi

OK, i say'd it was on par in terms of price to performance with the stug. It costs less so it also performs less.

Like what more do you want form a 75f vehicle
60 max range(stug has 50)
170 max range pen(stug has 180)
3.875-4.375 s Reload(stug has 4.5-5.5 s reload)
fuel difference with mediums p4 45 and p4j 65 (stug has t34 0, sherman and cromwell 20)
fuel difference with special mediums Panther 110 (stug has t34/85 40, easy8 55, sherman-76 35, comet 95)

I don't know for me they look on par in terms of bang for buck.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 09:33 AMKlement Pikhtura

I'm still baffled that Stug is being compared to SU-76 and stating that it is on par with it. To unit that is nothing but a stopgap with even more awkward timing after Mechanized Armor Kampenya fuel price increase to delay t-70. I guess it is alright in terms of T3 all-ins.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 09:33 AMKlement Pikhtura

I'm still baffled that Stug is being compared to SU-76 and stating that it is on par with it. To unit that is nothing but a stopgap with even more awkward timing after Mechanized Armor Kampenya fuel price increase to delay t-70. I guess it is alright in terms of T3 all-ins.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 09:33 AMHannibal

Stug is more cost efficient AT.
Assuming the TTK times as written above (7 and 5 shots vs medium for SU and Stug):

Stug needs 21,5 s to kill an average Allied medium (326 MP, 103 FU), yielding 15,16 MP and 4,79 FU per second.
SU needs 33,1 s to kill OST P4 -> 10,57 MP / 3,62 FU

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 09:49 AMZeroZeroNi

That is a very terrible way to calculate efficiency. Cause what does that even mean??

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 09:33 AMHannibal

Stug is more cost efficient AT.
Assuming the TTK times as written above (7 and 5 shots vs medium for SU and Stug):

Stug needs 21,5 s to kill an average Allied medium (326 MP, 103 FU), yielding 15,16 MP and 4,79 FU per second.
SU needs 33,1 s to kill OST P4 -> 10,57 MP / 3,62 FU

This gives StuG higher damage potential of +43% MP and +32% FU, while costing the same MP, +20% FU and +25% POP. This advantage still remains if you subtract 2 seconds of the SU TTK because of higher range. It equals out in the matchip against a T34 and improves vs Sherman and Cromwell.
So unless you can regularly take a long range shot, the StuG is better. Not to mention that a close range StuG is still a threat. A close range SU is probably dead because the StuG comes with way better defensive stats.

I'll say that this is a quite theoretical calculation since vehicle combat is all or nothing. But still, the StuG counters Allied resources more efficiently than the SU76.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 10:06 AMVipper

There are so many theoretical simplifications here to draw any safe conclusion.
(The math you are using are also unclear)

Cost efficient is simply difficult to quantify but if you want simpler approach the PzIV/SU-76 cost ratio is much batter than T-34/76/Stug and SU-76 can zone out the PzIV from longer range.

If one want to attempt to dive a tank to kill the the one still risks more in the case of the PzIV to cause less bleed to the enemy.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 10:17 AMHannibal

Obviously there are quite some other factors. The Stug has to stand in ATG and TD range for the first shot, the SU only in ATG range.

The resource ratio is a very bad indicator, because it assumes similar TTK.

Jump back to quoted post16 Apr 2021, 10:18 AMVipper

TTK is also a bad indicator on it own because it assumes that TD will kill the tank...