Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

VSL is odd to be honest. If you want staying power just go Osttruppen who can also build their own sandbags which is already a massive disadvantage in terms of staying power for VSL.

Edit: typo

VSL is odd to be honest. If you want staying power just go Osttruppen who can also build their own sandbags which is already a massive disadvantage in terms of staying power for VSL.

Edit: typo

I see your point and I agree about Osttruppen, I just happen to really enjoy the Infantry Doctrine. Even if it is not the best I would probably continue to use it. But that gives me an idea. Why not instead of free medkits VSL grens can place sandbags?

*edit

Otherwise imo it seems like if you pick the Infantry commander you just want the upgrade for panzer grenadiers and access to storm troopers while using lmg gren? I mean sure you can get fragmentation bombs so like there are some decent things in the doctrine still, but aren't there doctrines with access to that which gives you more things that are equally good but offer more?

Like elite troops especially now that g43 grens are buffed and that would also give you access to storm troopers and other good abilities

Or maybe you're better off using Strategic Reserves Doctrine. That gives your panzer gren access to smoke grenades too, instead of VSL Pios they have breakthrough upgrade which allow them to repair fast and stacks with the minesweeper repair just like it would with 5 man pios from Infantry Doctrine. But not only this you have access to a Panzer 4 Model J and Mobile Observation Post and Tiger Ace. And if you want to, Assault Gren are good too

Spearhead, if you're going to use lmg grens and you want fragmentation bombs you get access to recon, tiger and panzer tactician, mortar half track

I guess I just don't want to see Infantry Doctrine be useless and I could be wrong maybe it's still a good doctrine, but it seeems to me IMO that the doctrine has similar abilities in other doctrines that compete just as well if not better because VSL grens are no longer good. The point of the ability I think is to give you a better mainline option with your grenadiers. But again yeah, I could be very wrong, just thought I'd give some examples as to why I think this way, especially now that this commander update is close to going live, it would seem like they're trying to make more commanders to be viable choices so I am just hoping Infantry Doctrine remains a solid choice as well

I think the idea of giving osttruppen buechse 39's is an interesting idea. I don't know how effective those AT rifles are against Allied light armor though, considering that most allied lights are a little more sturdy than axis lights on the whole. At least the ones used to be aggressive with, like Stuart, AEC, and T-70.

Against halftracks, katyusha, UC/WC-51, M20 they would definitely be really good though.

I think the idea of giving osttruppen buechse 39's is an interesting idea. I don't know how effective those AT rifles are against Allied light armor though, considering that most allied lights are a little more sturdy than axis lights on the whole. At least the ones used to be aggressive with, like Stuart, AEC, and T-70.

Against halftracks, katyusha, UC/WC-51, M20 they would definitely be really good though.

The PZB-39 is basically a PTRS but more damage at the expense of slower reload. Pretty good vs light vehicles. Wish it was in a few commanders.

I see your point and I agree about Osttruppen, I just happen to really enjoy the Infantry Doctrine. Even if it is not the best I would probably continue to use it. But that gives me an idea. Why not instead of free medkits VSL grens can place sandbags?


Otherwise imo it seems like if you pick the Infantry commander you just want the upgrade for panzer grenadiers and access to storm troopers while using lmg gren? I mean sure you can get fragmentation bombs so like there are some decent things in the doctrine still, but aren't there doctrines with access to that which gives you more things that are equally good but offer more?

Like elite troops especially now that g43 grens are buffed and that would also give you access to storm troopers and other good abilities

Or maybe you're better off using Strategic Reserves Doctrine. That gives your panzer gren access to smoke grenades too, instead of vsl pios they have breakthrough upgrade which allow them to repair fast which stacks with the minesweeper repair just like it would with 5 man pios from Infantry Doctrine. But not only this you have access to a Panzer 4 Model J and Mobile Observation Post and Tiger Ace. And if you want to, Assault Gren are good too

Spearhead, if you're going to use lmg grens and you want fragmentation bombs you get access to recon, tiger and panzer tactician, mortar half track

I guess I just don't want to see Infantry Doctrine be useless and I could be wrong maybe it's still a good doctrine, but it seeems to me IMO that the doctrine has similar abilities in other doctrines that compete just as well if not better because VSL grens are no longer good. The point of the ability I think is to give you a better mainline option with your grenadiers. But again yeah, I could be very wrong, just thought I'd give some examples as to why I think this way, especially now that this commander update is close to going live, it would seem like they're trying to make more commanders to be viable choices so I am just hoping Infantry Doctrine remains a solid choice as well

I agree with this, I also do not want to see Infantry Doctrine become useless but at the moment it is hot garbage. I would be happy if they made it similar to the 7 man conscript upgrade, basically an extra model, faster vet and reinforce reduction at the expense of locking out the LMG-42. No G43/STG or any other nonsense.

No G43/STG or any other nonsense.

Well the stg is there to stop them from 1 volleying models. It'd be the same problem as G43 if you just gave them kar98's as well.

Well the stg is there to stop them from 1 volleying models. It'd be the same problem as G43 if you just gave them kar98's as well.

I don't think the STG change is what the real problem with VSL grens is. Besides, they already added in new dialogue specifically for this design of the STG VSL Grenadier squad. There is something else that needs to change about the upgrade to make it a viable choice

I see your point and I agree about Osttruppen, I just happen to really enjoy the Infantry Doctrine. Even if it is not the best I would probably continue to use it. But that gives me an idea. Why not instead of free medkits VSL grens can place sandbags?
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i actually like the free med kits. 10 mun may not be a big deal but it does add up over the course of a game. the relatively long cooldown and casting duration feel rather restrictive though and make it nearly impossible to skip the med bunker entirely.
i'd probably go a different route to make the VSL upgrade more desirable. right now it offers a great toughness boost, albeit you pay for it every time you need to reinforce that extra model back at base. maybe a slight reinforcement cost reduction could help to offset this a bit?

Well the stg is there to stop them from 1 volleying models. It'd be the same problem as G43 if you just gave them kar98's as well.

Cons with mobilize reserves also 1 bolley models. Its just about adjusting the timing of the upgrade.

I see your point and I agree about Osttruppen, I just happen to really enjoy the Infantry Doctrine. Even if it is not the best I would probably continue to use it. But that gives me an idea. Why not instead of free medkits VSL grens can place sandbags?

I think this is actually a good idea to buff VSL without touching its combat stat.

How often does this "one volleying" of a model actually take place?
Even under the best circumstances (old VSL Grens with G43) at mid range vs Conscripts (RA ~1,09), I get a chance of 14% for that happening. And this is already assuming that all of them target the same model, which probably brings the chance down to a couple of percent at the very best, more likely even 1% or less. Is it really THAT important?

How often does this "one volleying" of a model actually take place?
Even under the best circumstances (old VSL Grens with G43) at mid range vs Conscripts (RA ~1,09), I get a chance of 14% for that happening. And this is already assuming that all of them target the same model, which probably brings the chance down to a couple of percent at the very best, more likely even 1% or less. Is it really THAT important?

It's not so much about sniping a model in literally 1 volley, but rather about high chances to drop a model in the first 2-3 volleys of an engagement. Which is why I prefer the term "burst damage". Model drops are very influential to the outcome of infantry fights, so in the long run this does have a pretty big effect. Imo the change for Infantry Sections was definitely noticeable on a per match basis.

Cons with mobilize reserves also 1 bolley models. Its just about adjusting the timing of the upgrade.

Allies get all the exception m8, no matter how much you push back the timing grens won't get a weapon that allows them to 1 volley squads.
Why do you think 7-con can 1 volley models where as the Ober who are latest infantry squad to arrive can't.

Allies get all the exception m8, no matter how much you push back the timing grens won't get a weapon that allows them to 1 volley squads.
Why do you think 7-con can 1 volley models where as the Ober who are latest infantry squad to arrive can't.

Maybe because Conscripts have to wait until T4, bleeding like stuffed pigs unlike Obers which come at at T4 and directly start owning allied infantry. You are clearly biased about the Allies and the balance team.

However, the point still stands. VSL Grens being able to snipe models wouldn't be a problem if the timing was postponed. At the moment they are like Volks but with classier uniforms and nothing else while being just not worth when compared to LMG Grens or upcoming G43 Grens with better RA and an actual grenade.

Also @Sander93, seriously, what is the point of VSL Grens at this point ? Which is the corner stone of the German Infantry doctrine. If I want staying power, I'll just go Ostruppen. If I want close range power, I'll go Assault Grens or just bring in a PGren squad. Not only that but the difference between VSL Grens and LMG42 Grens isn't even huge considering that LMG Grens drop enemy models and that way take less damage from the enemy.

IMO, VSL should be like Mobilize Reserves of the Soviets. That is, a late upgrade that is really impactful that rewards patience rather than rushing weapon upgrades. That way it is distinct from other Grenadier upgrades while being completely unique with its timing and effect.

Also @Sander93, seriously, what is the point of VSL Grens at this point ? Which is the corner stone of the German Infantry doctrine. If I want staying power, I'll just go Ostruppen.

They are a generalist squad with good all range DPS and good staying power. They scale into the late game way better than Osttruppen. Osttruppen are better at the start, VSL are better mid to late. Their doctrine is also significantly more versatile than the Osttruppen ones.

German Infantry is still a popular commander in automatch, and when we asked the top players almost all of them agreed the upgrade is fine as it is now.

IMO, VSL should be like Mobilize Reserves of the Soviets. That is, a late upgrade that is really impactful that rewards patience rather than rushing weapon upgrades. That way it is distinct from other Grenadier upgrades while being completely unique with its timing and effect.

That would be pointless. Ostheer can not hold out until the late game with stock Grenadiers.
Grens need their early/mid game upgrade powerspike.

They are a generalist squad with good all range DPS and good staying power. They scale into the late game way better than Osttruppen. Osttruppen are better at the start, VSL are better mid to late. Their doctrine is also significantly more versatile than the Osttruppen ones.

How come German Infantry is more versatile than Ostruppen doctrines ? Even the ability to build sandbags is good enough on Ostruppen doctrines along with other stuff like Supply Drop, PaK43, StuG-E when compared to the German Infantry.

German Infantry is still a popular commander in automatch, and when we asked the top players almost all of them agreed the upgrade is fine as it is now.

Can't say anything to that since I'm not a top player.

That would be pointless. Ostheer can not hold out until the late game with stock Grenadiers.
Grens need their early/mid game upgrade powerspike.

I mean OST doesn't only have the Grens. In fact, it relies mostly on team weapon supportive play as you better know. There are PGrens, MG42, Gw-34 and haftracs (also in the doctrine) to help Grens get there so I don't think weapon upgrades are absolutely essential for Grens especially since the main weakness of OST is the Light Vehicle phase, not fighting infantry and weapon upgrades do not help against the Light Vehicles.

How come German Infantry is more versatile than Ostruppen doctrines ? Even the ability to build sandbags is good enough on Ostruppen doctrines along with other stuff like Supply Drop, PaK43, StuG-E when compared to the German Infantry.

German Infantry is primarily a 1v1 doctrine. The StuG E and Pak 43 are meme units, and the Supply Drop is barely more cost effective than just getting a regular Pak and the better HMG 42. Meanwhile Infantry has the stuff you want in 1v1, which is better repairs and a relatively cheap offmap that can counter support weapons.

OST [...] relies mostly on team weapon supportive play as you better know

I'd say a year worth of meta being dominated by VSL Grens and Osttruppen prove otherwise. The HMG 42 is the pinnacle of their early game when engagements are more focussed. But once the mid game hits and engagements are spread out, unupgraded Grens no longer cut it and the HMG 42 can't be everywhere. They need their powerspike. All factions need good mainline infantry unless it's a specific scenario (like a city map). Otherwise they have no way to push, and they're likely to get dominated by light vehicle play.

Just some data regarding the VSL upgrade:
Compared to the "old" version, VSL Grens lost a 10% RA modifier (=10% less EHP), gained approx 5% more static damage (-1 to +10% depending on range and vet status, strongest gain at mid ranges with about equal short and long range) and lost between 15-25% moving DPS (15% mid to long range, 25% short range).
They were clearly nerfed, but keep in mind that they were basically THE meta before the nerf and very strong against all other main line infantry.

Maybe because Conscripts have to wait until T4, bleeding like stuffed pigs unlike Obers which come at at T4 and directly start owning allied infantry. You are clearly biased about the Allies and the balance team.

Sure, You do realize that cons are cheap to both purchase and reinforce right. Unless you play like a moron you should not bleed.

German Infantry is still a popular commander in automatch, and when we asked the top players almost all of them agreed the upgrade is fine as it is now.

what do you mean by Fine. Fine as they are Not OP or Fine as in they are viable alternative to LMG 42(cause they are not)

Just some data regarding the VSL upgrade:
Compared to the "old" version, VSL Grens lost a 10% RA modifier (=10% less EHP), gained approx 5% more static damage (-1 to +10% depending on range and vet status, strongest gain at mid ranges with about equal short and long range) and lost between 15-25% moving DPS (15% mid to long range, 25% short range).
They were clearly nerfed, but keep in mind that they were basically THE meta before the nerf and very strong against all other main line infantry.

I mean 270mp+60muni Shouldn't be strong vs all other mainline infantry???