Doctrinal infantry spawning mechanics

[This discussion spawned out of the OKW commander revamp thread page 5+]

So this is a topic I found quite interesting:
Previously, the game had a lot more infantry with spawn mechanics. There were either paradrops that were meant to be placed in or very close to combat, as well as a multitude of infiltration spawns from buildings to surprise the enemy and kill a damaged unit.
With the changes over the last years, parachuting and infiltration building spawns have now completely missed their original design. The initial strength of units has been nerfed to allow them to better fit into build orders or remove "cheesy" spawns. Examples here are the Fall nerf to 2 FG42s, infiltration commandos down to 3 men and Stormstroopers needing to upgrade MP40s. Others like JLI have completely lost the ability to spawn from buildings. Alternatively, map reworks have continuously removed buildings or moved them to less important areas (Whiteflash even said that he completely avoids placing functional buildings at all).

This makes these spawn mechanics nice to look at, but overall less meaningful. Infiltration spawns have become a rarity and the power spike from those units upon entering combat has been lowered a lot. The additional delays (for weapon upgrades) also do not allow to launch them into an ongoing attack anymore. I know all of this was intentional and in most cases also benefited overall unit balance, but it degrades the whole spawning mechanic to (slight hyperbole) nothing more than a neat animation.

Now the question: What do we do with this?
Do we just keep it this way? It's not really broken after all. But maybe we could also do much more with it and rework these spawning mechanics of these units (they are doctrinal, so covered by the upcoming patch) for a slightly more impactful or at least unique spawn role.

I do think that the infiltration changes were made for a good reason, but I do agree that the feature isn't as elegant or interesting as it could be.

My suggestion would actually be to make the infiltration squads come out at full power, but with a delay equivalent to a build time. That would allow them to be used more aggressively, but not as a quick reaction to a retreat, which was pretty cheesy. It would require planning.

In CoH1 it was a strong commander feature for airborne to be able to spawn paratroopers in someone's backlines during an engagement because their drop speed was really fast. I always figured the next step would be to allow some sort of recall or re-drop feature for the commander that allows them to keep doing it at some cost.

In CoH2, airborne take like 20 seconds to drop, can get shot at, and come in at 3 CP so that ain't happening. Completely misses the mark. The beacon could increase their drop speed or something that'd of been neat.

On topic

I don't agree with removal of many mechanics if they can spice up the potential for power plays, game decisions, or health of the game. If they are too powerful then they should have to pay a cost associated with their power.

The issue at a core game design level is that all purchases tend to be small due to how upkeep and manpower gain work. You can't make a big 700 manpower purchase earlier in the game, you bleed too much and have to tech/gain certain squads. So the INFIL Commando call in was OP because of the value you got out of it (Commandos + shock power). So instead of raising the MP cost to something worth it's strength, you can't because you can't save up that kind of manpower reasonably, so theoretically the decision was to reduce the amount of men that come out.

In reality, the strength should of stayed intact imo, and charged a secondary currency such as Munitions(Seems to be the trend for utility) or even fuel along with it. That way there is a cost but not such a gross MP cost that no one can afford and you are using your resources more strategically. Or alternatively some sort of "MP Loan" where you pay an MP cost, then have to pay even more over a certain duration via taxing your MP.

My suggestion would actually be to make the infiltration squads come out at full power, but with a delay equivalent to a build time.

I like this idea too, where you click a building for commandos to spawn from and then they begin "infiltrating" aka taking time to spawn in the building (Like 1 minute), and then if you click the ability on the building again when they are "done infiltrating" they spawn. That encourages the game mechanic rather then pushing it to the side. I'm not sure the game has tech for these kinds of decisions though.

Actually it wasn't all nerfs. Grenades and some abilities on cooldown is a generally true nerf, but there were some buffs too.
-Partisans still have their shock value
-Stormtroopers got completelly reworked, before you had to spend 100(!!!) munitions to get any shock value out of them other than their bundle nade (which was also on cooldown). Now you just have to spawn them a tiny bit further away, so they are not seen for 10 secs while upgrading for free. They also have assault camo now, so they can actually move unseen.
-Falls got only 2 fg42s, buts that's still enough to dish out decent damage and the squad is far more durable now. Falls behind enemy lines are still a major threat.
-We got the brand new airborne guards with 6 svts on spawn, that's quite dangerous at all ranges.
-Paratroopers unchanged.

As for infiltration commandos I would consider giving them an upgrade delay, similar to stormtroopers, so they can spawn with a full squad. A 3 men commando squad can't do that much tbh and they also risk getting wiped easier. Enfields on spawn would be overkill on them (and would synergise too well with brens) so instead they could get pistols.
As for JLI I don't know the background of all the nerfs they got. I remember they used to be cp0, pretty much an another core unit and spawn from ambient buildings, now both of these features got removed. I agree tho that the current JLI can get quite strong in late game when they are supporting other squads.

i think everyone will agree that infiltration units in particular were hit hard by the adjustments made to reduce the 'cheesiness' of easy retreat wipes or vehicle kills. this, just to name one example, is very obvious for the soviet AT-partisans which used to be a reliable anti-vehicle panic button when they still had their snare available upon spawning. with that gone (probably for the better gameplay-wise) they now seem largely obsolete since outside those surprise snare/finish scenarios they don't offer much for their cost anymore.

i'd say ideas such as the spawning delay floated by roastinghost would surely help to make these ambush setups, and hence infiltration units more viable again, but at the same time feel less frustrating to play against as more planning would be required to pull them off.

another thing that could give the special spawning mechanics of these units more relevance would be to increase the availability of on-map reinforcement to some extent. currently this is only available for paradropped squads, and here also only under very limited circumstances, i.e. a nearby beacon for US paratroopers or activated airborne assault for OKW falls. a greater reinforce radius for the beacon and a prolonged duration of the on-field reinforcement effect for airborne assault (after the attack planes already vanished) might be an idea to achieve this and render their peculiar spawning mechanics a bit more meaningful. maybe something similar could even be implemented for infiltration squads, like partisans being able to reinforce from ambient buildings whenever spy network is active.

[This discussion spawned out of the OKW commander revamp thread page 5+]

So this is a topic I found quite interesting:
Previously, the game had a lot more infantry with spawn mechanics. There were either paradrops that were meant to be placed in or very close to combat, as well as a multitude of infiltration spawns from buildings to surprise the enemy and kill a damaged unit.
With the changes over the last years, parachuting and infiltration building spawns have now completely missed their original design. The initial strength of units has been nerfed to allow them to better fit into build orders or remove "cheesy" spawns. Examples here are the Fall nerf to 2 FG42s, infiltration commandos down to 3 men and Stormstroopers needing to upgrade MP40s. Others like JLI have completely lost the ability to spawn from buildings. Alternatively, map reworks have continuously removed buildings or moved them to less important areas (Whiteflash even said that he completely avoids placing functional buildings at all).

This makes these spawn mechanics nice to look at, but overall less meaningful. Infiltration spawns have become a rarity and the power spike from those units upon entering combat has been lowered a lot. The additional delays (for weapon upgrades) also do not allow to launch them into an ongoing attack anymore. I know all of this was intentional and in most cases also benefited overall unit balance, but it degrades the whole spawning mechanic to (slight hyperbole) nothing more than a neat animation.

Now the question: What do we do with this?
Do we just keep it this way? It's not really broken after all. But maybe we could also do much more with it and rework these spawning mechanics of these units (they are doctrinal, so covered by the upcoming patch) for a slightly more impactful or at least unique spawn role.

Personally I think all doctrinal infantry should be built at the HQ, rather than being "Called in", and should all be tied to tech instead of to "CP" (I'd say the same of /all/ doctrinal units, but this thread is about infantry specifically).

Infiltration units in particular should simply cease being infiltration units, and be constructed normally. In exchange, they would arrive pre-upgraded, and I might argue that their camouflage should be improved. The latter to allow these units to still fulfil their role of penetrating enemy lines and causing disruption, without the gimmicky (and more importantly: Inconsistently useful due to the number and position of ambient buildings) "infiltration" mechanic.

Paras and Fallschirmjaeger Should still be airdropped/called in, as I don't think there's a really viable way to make changes to the way these units are "made" and still keep their flavour/role. It also keeps them unique.


A side benefit of all doctrinal infantry/vehicles being buildable, rather than "called in" is that it can help to free space in the commander UI, which leaves room for abilities to be added/shuffled around in doctrines.

EDIT: Alternately, in the case of Infiltration squads, I think they ought to take a page from Paras' books. An engineer unit should need to construct a "beacon" (or field camp, whatever) that infiltration squads can be "infiltrated" to. This would at least make things more consistent, though it would be a nerf in many cases.

Well one issue with infiltration spawn is that good buildings have become rather rare on some maps. Not all maps need to cater to infiltration spawns, but with the general design of 'moving buildings away from important points' (which was good all things considered), plus weapon upgrades plus starting abilities on cool down there is simply no real point in this spawn mechanic anymore.
Especially in the example of infiltration commandos: With 3 men, I get a mediocre and fragile fighting squad. I usually don't want this squad behind enemy lines, because as soon as I retreat them they run through fire and flames. Partisans have become pretty useless, and Stormtroopers are similarly fragile. Their whole selling point is their DPS ability anyway.

Literally NONE of these squads is special because they can spawn in buildings. We could just scrap that whole mechanic and next to no one would probably bother.
In any case, this is a spawn gimmick anyway. This role does not translate into the later gameplay at all.

We could just give them something else instead. A camo ability where they can camo anywhere after a cast time or so with medium range detection radius. Let them temporarily claim buildings to reinforce or give them some disruption ability to hamper the enemy's economy. After spawning, stormtroopers/infiltration commanfos/partisans are not that much different from other camo units. Only partisans bring some utility abilities to the table such as hidden mine planting.

What if Infiltration was reworked to function without buildings?

You have a circle like the paradrop icon, you click an area, there's a "build time" while the unit infiltrates, and when it's done it spawns camouflaged in cover. They'll spawn as a full squad with their fully armed. This way they're less like a one-click shock unit and more like an actual infiltrator.

What if Infiltration was reworked to function without buildings?

You have a circle like the paradrop icon, you click an area, there's a "build time" while the unit infiltrates, and when it's done it spawns camouflaged in cover. They'll spawn as a full squad with their fully armed. This way they're less like a one-click shock unit and more like an actual infiltrator.

I fully agree that these units should not rely on buildings as much anymore.

I just think IF they already have this infiltration tag on them (and the idea behind it is quite cool), they should have a somewhat special mechanic. Currently they are just another camo unit that I can very occasionally spawn from somewhere inside the map. And only half of the times this is useful.

What if Infiltration was reworked to function without buildings?

You have a circle like the paradrop icon, you click an area, there's a "build time" while the unit infiltrates, and when it's done it spawns camouflaged in cover. They'll spawn as a full squad with their fully armed. This way they're less like a one-click shock unit and more like an actual infiltrator.

Ah yes, the famous WW2 teleportation technology.
Should be implemented asap.

Ah yes, the famous WW2 teleportation technology.
Should be implemented asap.

The current implementation is not much more logical either. Infiltration squads hide in houses and then spawn from there, that's the "story" behind it. They could have also just hidden in some hedges. If it were to fit gameplay better, this is really a minor concern.

Ah yes, the famous WW2 teleportation technology.
Should be implemented asap.

Well yes, but the implication is that they make their way to position during their "building" phase, then once they've arrived they "check in" and become visible to the commander (the player) and are available for orders.

It's really not much different than units spawning in the building the instant you give the order, or going further units spawning in the sky when you give the order, or even aircraft spawning exactly where they are needed with no arrival time other than the time it takes to cross the map (depending on ability used).

Infiltration units.

In rather typical COH2 manner this units went from mediocre, to OP, to irrelevant.

Imo infiltration unit should become available to build from HQ at normal price and available to spawn from building but for a premium cost. That would solve the problem of proper balancing.

They should offer added utility so that the remain useful even after spawn. (recon, explosives traps, becaon, off map call-in,...)

Camo unit should lose HE grenades and get DOT damage instead so reduce "cheesy".

Paras and infiltration units should have a high entity counter so that can operate behind enemy lines and retreat back to their line with relative safety.

I think the rework of Stormtroopers is the best iteration that you can get for infiltration units. You can spawn them on map but they can't be used as a split second wipe mechanic and their camo still lets you hide and upgrade for an ambush. Partysans theoretically should work but their power level in live is too low.

I think the rework of Stormtroopers is the best iteration that you can get for infiltration units. You can spawn them on map but they can't be used as a split second wipe mechanic and their camo still lets you hide and upgrade for an ambush. Partysans theoretically should work but their power level in live is too low.

Personally I do not like ST, the DPS drop off is simply too high making encounter RNG based while they are not that cost efficient in the AT role.

Personally I do not like ST, the DPS drop off is simply too high making encounter RNG based while they are not that cost efficient in the AT role.

You can not like Storms performance but the nature of the infiltration design is still good. You could still do the same design and give them their old STG upgrade or whatever you want performance wise. I think most people like them just for the Tactical-Wipe ability *shrug*