Ostheer Commander Revamp 2021

Since we have a lot of suggestions popping up in different threads, please bundle them all here to not clutter the forums. Ost is the only faction lacking this thread at the moment

Blitzkreig Doctrine:
Just replace Tactical Movement with Assault and Hold from German Infantry.

Jager Armor Doctrine:
replace recon with a vehicle based flare like 251. (Fits the namesake "Hunting/Hunter armor" much better)
replace meme strafe with heat shells(okw ability) for p4s, stugs(if possible) and Panthers.(again fits namesake "Hunting/Hunter armor" much better)

German Mechanized Doc:
A revamp on similar scale to German infantry. a more game-plan orientated revamp.

Festung Armor Doc:
Completely overshadowed by Fortified Armor. Cause ELE >> pak43.

Festung Support Doc:
LeFH doc, overshadowed by storm. And on the defensive end Overshadowed by Defensive.
A possible suggestion maybe to make it more defense orientated. Maybe add Goliath and Point flare you know just as a suggestion. to give it a more COH1 defensive doctrine vibe with more vision from point and defensive style arty.

German Infantry:
Fine maybe reduce 5-man gren from 60 to 50 muni.

Strat Reserve:
fine.

Unit changes:
P4 Commando Tank:
- Should get the tank commander barrage like the OKW tanks. I think this would make the unit a lot better and several doctrines would benefit from this change.


Ability changes:
- Flares from Forward Observation point should get a lot more range.

- CP requirements for Smoke Bombs reduced from 4 to 2 CP (like the OKW Smoke recon run)

- reduce Fuel cost for Breakthrough ability

- reduce the mun cost for light arty barrage to 80, currently the ability is too expensive compared to it's impact

- G43 for grens should be buffed and the price adjusted to 60 mun if needed

I will post ideas for commander changes later.

Quoting myself from the upcoming commander update - wishes thread:

Could ostheer get at least one doctrinal forward retreat point? I was thinking of putting it in Festung Armor for example in place of smoke or the pak43, I rarely see that commander being used.

Actually now you mention it I had a similar idea before, giving the FRP ability to an Sd. Kfz. 260/261. This is basicly a turretless 223 (perhaps replace pintle mg with panzer commander), so it would be possible to make with the modding tools. My idea was that this vehicle would have dual purpose: it would have a very long sight range (70~80), so, if it is indeed put into Festung Armor doctrine, then you can either use it to spot for hulled down panthers (they have longer range than elephant actually) or deploy somewhere safer for FRP.

edit: hulled down panthers actually don't have longer range than elephant, but slightly longer than 60, allied TD range.

I'll just somewhat repeat myself from other threads about a couple of units that are currently on my mind:

Command P4:
Combat wise, it is okay. My biggest grudge is that you cannot really fit it in population wise to still enough out of the damage reduction bonus. So I suggest either a POP reduction or an additional utility ability (inspire, smoke, extra sight, recon, mark target etc) that does not directly influence the combat performance of the unit.


Half track+infantry bundle call ins:
They are a nice and thematic ability, but they scale horribly. PGrens as mechanized infantry make a lot of thematic sense to call in with them, but I'll lay out my issues:
At 2 CP, the infantry build is usually done or at least close to being done. I could stall one unit to get this call in, but I do not see a real point in it unless I get something special (like any other elite infantry at CP2). Grenadiers can already be built earlier, at this point in time I probably want a PGren. The ability gets available at about the 5 min mark (the PGren group even later), so the 250 comes a tiny bit too late in my eyes since it provides less punch than a 222 or 251 that come at a similar time. It also has no late game scaling, so this ability will at best only be used once in the early game.
Two solutions for that: 1. Remove the bundle, make the ability a CP0 250. 2. (my favourite): After BP3, make this unit upgradable to a 250 mortar half track. If that is impossible, add some other utility/scaling to it. This would allow the ability to replace lost squads in the late game. Unarguably, it would still be very situational since you are forced to get the half track as well.


doctrinal 251 abilities:
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I find the 251 still to be VERY micro heavy. At least in team games it is not a real strategy in my opinion which might be due to my micro not being good enough. Still, I'd like to see the following changes: Bundle the Riegel Mine and the mobile observation post. My main concern is the Riegel: It is a very nice mine, but I really don't want to build a 251 for this alone. Especially not in the late game. Similarly, I do not use and rarely see anyone using the mobile observation post. I think these abilities are just slightly lackluster and might give the 251 more purpose if bundled together.


Jager Command Squad:
I see why this unit is in the "Jager Infantry" Commander only. But it is hella cool. I'd literally just like to have a second commander with it. Maybe lightning war (replace relief infantry)?


Opel Blitz Cargo Truck:
Weird unit. Not really worth it in team games, useless in 1v1. Costs 50 MP less than a cache, yet does not benefit any of your team mates. Why should I chose this one over a cache?
Either it could use a complete redesign, or just give it an ability to drop medical supplies, so OST could use it to heal team weapons without needing a Grenadier/Pio to waste time. Still, won't be a good unit though I feel.


Panzer tactician:
Longer overdue to add a 0,5-1 second delay to the smoke.


MobiDef Commander
-Osttruppen reserves: At the very least, these should be a CP0 single Osttruppen squad. Currently, I have to wait until CP3, miss the most effective window of Osttruppen, am forced to get two at the same time and... pay extra compared to getting single ones. Really?
-Overall, I do not get the thematic story of this commander. Counter attack? Alright, that's okay. Puma? Maybe. PanzerTac? Okay as well. But what do Osttruppen and the Command P4 do here thematically? I'd rather give another recon ability for scouting, a mortar half track, a plane strafe, tactical movement or the JLI upgrade. Even ambush training would fit.




Will likely add some units/Commander later, but that's it for now.

I'll just somewhat repeat myself from other threads about a couple of units that are currently on my mind:
...

Will likely add some units/Commander later, but that's it for now.

Very good thoughts, Hannibal!
1. doctrinal 251 abilities + Mobile Defense
Merging the Riegel / Obervation post flare to one ability is my favorite. The merged ability would fit very well to Mobile Defense btw.
https://www.coh2.org/topic/101020/6-changes-to-improve-wehrmacht-commanders-thematically/post/790046
Take a look at Sander's Mobile Defense idea.It would be a very useful commander especially if it would get the Riegel as well.

2. Storm Commander:
- Riegel mine removed, replaced by Assault Grens
Riegel is a awefull fit for this doctrin. Assgrens would fit in thematically and have great synergy with off map smoke.
New commander:
- Ambush Camouflage
- Assgrens
- Off map smoke
- 10,5 cm Howitzer
- Stuka Dive Bomb

Tactical Movement:
Not worth it for its current cost. Should come with something like 25-33 % Cap speed, or alternatively, give some combat bonus (without the in-combat sprint though, tyvm)

G43 Grens:
Need something, they're just plain bad right now. They're fine until midgame, and then they fall of as a hard as a rock thrown from a cliff. Maybe a third G43 and some minor RA buff once T4 has been built?

Panzer Tactician:
Give it a delay so it's not a get-out-of-jail free card.

Relief Infantry:
Probably among the most useless abilities in the game. Needs a complete rework.

Command Tank:
Give it observation mode and a smoke shell, that should be enough to make the unit worthwhile.

Commander Changes:

Festung Armor Reworked:
2cp Panzer Tactician
5cp Hulldown
7cp Command Tank
12cp Railway
13cp King Tiger (T4 must have been built)

The doctrine isn't bad, but needs something to stand out. I think a KT would open up some interesting possibilities within the commander, and make it a viable option in the 2v2+ meta. If the package of hulldown, Command Tank and KT is too strong, replace the Command Tank with something like Panzer Commander or HEAT shells.

Festung Support:
1cp Entrenching Tools
2cp Mortar HT/Leig
3cp Supply Drop
8cp Lefh
12cp Sector Artillery

Literally the most useless Wehrmacht commander by a long distance. However, if Relief Infantry were to be replaced by something like Entrenching Tools, you all of a sudden have a commander that lives up to its description of, “Support a defensive strategy; control space with artillery to establish a strong front line.”
The Mortar HT, unfortunately is currently not worth it. Either buff it, or alternatively, replace it with the Leig18.
Finally, the Supply Drop fits thematically, whereas smoke bombs are more of an offensively-used ability.

Mobile Defense:
Mostly fine, but Osttruppen reserves is a useless ability and should be buffed or replaced. Likewise, the Puma needs to be 4 CP instead of 5, because it currently just comes too late to be useful.

Mechanized/Mechanized Assault:
Change the 250 bundles to work like the 250 from German Infantry.

snip

I absolutely did not remember that thread, but it is also one and a half years old. Still most of the information is still up date.

I agree with your points. Sander's suggestion is very nice, I would replace "hold the line" with OKW's "For the Fatherland". It would reduce mixing abilities between Allies and Axis (ideally, I'd give this commander another OST ability, but the only similar ability is "Assault and hold" which would overlap with counter attack). Also, I feel like these expensive infantry buffing abilities are almost never chosen. The more affordable ones can be used and won't cost you too much even if it was not worth it.


Regarding the Storm commander:
I agree with adding Assault Grens to it. Thinking about it, this commander should lose one of the two arty slots, so either the howitzer OR the dive bomb. The name suggests very aggressive attacks, yet it feels more like another artillery commander. The commander text still mentions tactical movement, which sounds very thematic. I don't know why it was changed back then, but tactical movement or "assault and hold" would probably fit nicely as well.

Quoting myself from the upcoming commander update - wishes thread:





edit: hulled down panthers actually don't have longer range than elephant, but slightly longer than 60, allied TD range.

This is a really good idea and I am not biased at all. :^)

First of all I want to support a foward retreat point for Ostheer af Festungs Doctrine. I do think this is only fair after Soviet got one too with Airborne Commander. It should be a doctrinal option for the big 3vs3 and 4vs4 maps.

Half track+infantry bundle call ins:
They are a nice and thematic ability, but they scale horribly...

+1 This should be done to all HT+infantry call-ins across all factions. I really support this. If it is a special infantry with a standard faction HT make a seperate infantry call-in (remove HT), if it is a special light vehicle make it buildable at appropiate tech (0CP). If both units are special make a seperate infantry call-in and bind HT to tech. Done. Would be so much better.

Panzer tactician:
Longer overdue to add a 0,5-1 second delay to the smoke.

Another good point. This should be done across all factions again not only for Panzer tactican (USF M20 / UKF AEC / UKF Churchill / OKW AA Flak-HT...-> all smoke abilities which can instantly conceal your vehicle). I would add an even bigger delay about 2-3 seconds. It would be still below the shooting cycle of any tank or At-Gun shooting at you, but it would have to be used with some more foresight.

Jager Armor Doctrine:
replace recon with a vehicle based flare like 251

Sorry that I have to say that, but Imo this would be a rather bad change because it would overlap with the Spotting Scope ability too much. Both abilities would grant somehow sight at the enemy frontline. Both would be bound to a vehicle. Recon Plane is a totally different ability which allows to get sight at units behind enemy frontline without beeing depended on a casting unit itself. So it doesn't overlap with Spotting Scope and thus should stay.

Sorry that I have to say that, but Imo this would be a rather bad change because it would overlap with the Spotting Scope ability too much. Both abilities would grant somehow sight at the enemy frontline. Both would be bound to a vehicle. Recon Plane is a totally different ability which allows to get sight at units behind enemy frontline without beeing depended on a casting unit itself. So it doesn't overlap with Spotting Scope and thus should stay.

I don't get what you even mean by overlap.

Not sure if the logic can be handled in game, but I'd like to see ostruppen reserves changed so that instead of any new squads or anything it just adds one ostruppen model to the squad reinforce queue for every model missing.

E.g. I have a 2 model squad on the field and I click the reserves. 2 ostruppens get queued up for reinforce, but don't appear immediately. I retreat, or move next to a half-track and then the squad gets those ostruppen models unless I decide to cancel them in the queue.

Perhaps a full squad could even receive a bonus ostruppen model for extra flavor.

Would remove the 'intentionally lose models' incentive, and instead make for interesting counter-attack situations. Makes the 251, 250 and command bunkers more attractive also.

Here is a guide to Ostheer Commander.

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/243328/wehrmacht-doctrine#latest

There are number of abilities that could use some changes like:
Command Tank
Jaeger Light Infantry upgrade
Stormtroopers
Ambush Training
Hull down
Relief Infantry
Mechanized Grenadier Group
Half-track Riegel 43 Anti-Tank Mine
Stuka Bombing Strike
Mobile Observation Posts

Axis hull down should not require infantry but be a self hull down like the KV-1s vet ability. Then it would see more usage.

I don't get what you even mean by overlap.

It means the two abilities (flare/scope) are way too similar:
- both give sight at a part of enemy frontline
- both are available at the same vehicles
- both are limited in use by the current location of that vehicles

The recon plane can be used anywhere, giving you sight anywhere. So it is a completely different recon ability. Swapping it for an ability that its pretty similar to another existing one in the same commander is a waste of a commander ability slot. Its like having two close combat elite units at the same commander which only differ in the grenades they use.

First of all things: Its WEHRMACHT.

Ostheer is a CoH1 invention that stuck for whatever reason

Not sure if the logic can be handled in game, but I'd like to see ostruppen reserves changed so that instead of any new squads or anything it just adds one ostruppen model to the squad reinforce queue for every model missing.

A while ago I proposed for this ability (and the soviet one) that every lost soldier should just give you some manpower back. The core problem of the ability is that you don't want new units without vet in the course of the game. You want to preserve your vetted ones instead. If you would just get back some manpower you could use it in infantry intense fights and buffer the reinfordement costs as a result.

Regarding ''Relief infantry'', i posted an idea a while back, that was met with a lukewarm response. But i feel like giving my idea a second chance of review:

Instead of an active ability, it would now be passive, removing the OSSTR unit as a call-in.
All existing infantry units would have 2 options of reinforcement, standard or OSSTR, quality vs quantity choice.

The core unit,(pio,mg42,gren,pzgren,mortar,pak40) be it between 25% to 75% OSSTR, would still retain its abilities (build/repair,riflenade,bundlenade,upgrades etc) but would now have OSSTR durability and rifles/damage.

example could be a pzgren that has 1 model, instead of reinforcing 34mpx3=102mp. Could also reinforce with OSSTR 16mpx3=48mp.
the Pzgren has now 1x stg44 and 3x k98's, weaker, but can still throw bundlenades and upgrade to 2x pzschrecks.

inspired by the panzer general games, and merge ability from conscripts, the purpose is if you get hammered, this could get you back on your feet, if you manage to keep your units alive, and could be devestating if you have or retake a lot of teamweapons. i think this idea sticks close to the theme of ''relief infantry''