Raketenwerfer small retreat speed nerf?

Hi guys,

I'm fairly new to the Coh2, but played a lot of Coh1. So that means I have no qualifications at all to make any balance suggestion, so I'm just putting this idea out there and maybe start up a discussion.

Issue:
I think the OKW Raketenwerfer in its present form is too safe because it can retreat.
This allows the OKW player to position them overly aggressively and still be hard to punish.

The current Retreat benefits the Raketenwerfer in 3 ways:
1) Crew receive Retreat received accuracy bonuses
2) Retreat speed is the same as normal infantry
3) It doesn't suffer from the "Guy was killed so we have to drop the AT gun until another crew attaches to the AT gun"

I understand about faction design asymmetry etc. So my possible solution is to keep the retreat, just modify it.

Possible solution?

Vet 0 Reduce retreat speed (Perhaps by ~25%?)

Vet 2 Increase retreat speed (Perhaps by ~15%)

Vet 3 Normal retreat speed

This would encourage the OKW player to position Raketenwerfer like other AT guns earlier on before Vet by either
1) Not position Raketenwerfers so aggressively
or
2) Retreat them earlier if the engagement turns south.

I'm not sure if retreat speed can be coded, but I thought this might be one possible solution to this issue.

Would welcome your thoughts.

Well the whole point of this is that OKW can use their Raketenwerfer more aggressively than other factions can.

Three things you probably have missed on the negative side:
The crewmembers handling the gun do not get any RA bonus from the gun shield. Other ATGs provide those due to the gun shield
The Raketenwerfer only has 55 range.
The unit is much more vulnerable to AoE damsge sind the gunners are close together. They often get damaged/killed together.

Also, as far as I know the weapon pick up happens with the Raketenwerfer to in case a crewing unit dies on retreat.


EDIT:
There has been a lot of changes over the last patches regarding this unit. I think after all those it sits in a decent spot for both new and experienced players. However the reasoning at the time was that OKW did not have other early AT options, becazse the Sturmpio Schreck was not viable. With the recent patch this has changed, although I would not want to nerf the ATG for it

The problem is the combination of 5 men squad and retreat which make the unit too durable vs its intended counter = infantry.

its unmatched durability is the reason why you see abandoned raks littered aLL aCroSS the map eVeRyGaMe

Ah yes the AT gun so good that I go out of my way to steal 57mms. Truly outrageous combat performance.

Yes, Raketenwerfer is absolutely terrible, especially when it can be garrisoned, can be retreated and isn't as vulnerable as the wehraboos make it out to be.

its unmatched durability is the reason why you see abandoned raks littered aLL aCroSS the map eVeRyGaMe

It is unmatched, just not in a good way.

Assymetry is good and you pointed it out.

Great design imo. The real raketenwerfers were closer range than other ATG field guns, remember that Band of Brothers scene?

I actually like it. But I think the USF ATG should be more mobile with a move fast ability and perhaps reduce its pen a little. Sort of like the Raketen. They are both aggressive factions.

Also, Raketen are NOT bad. I get killed by those things more often than Paks when playing allies.

And I've killed Katyushas with it just A moving it around. It has camo can retreat after going out of position. It also doesn't die as easy as other ATGs. Also it can get vet 5 and fast rate of fire

Yes, Raketenwerfer is absolutely terrible, especially when it can be garrisoned, can be retreated and isn't as vulnerable as the wehraboos make it out to be.

Garrisoning the Rak is generally a bit pointless. It can't be made to target only vehicles, nor can it be made to hold fire completely. It often wastes fire on infantry, which is an issue when a vehicle then appears.

Being retreatable is also a bit of a double edged sword, it theoretically lets you escape with your Rak from a bad situation, but it also means that a Rak that the enemy HAS been able to decrew is much easier to steal, just like an MG or Mortar.

(Also the retreat behaviour is really annoying, picking itself up, spinning to face the base, and only THEN beginning to accelerate away. Raks eat a lot of grenades that a non-retreating AT gun would just reverse to escape from.)

It's a good AT gun, but it's hardly OP since the stealth rework. I generally wish I had a PAK or 57mm when I play OKW.

The lesser range is extremely important and often understated. That statistic alone warrants the Raketenwerfer's high survivability and ability to be positioned aggressively. Furthermore, the Raketen is a very unreliable AT gun that often bugs out and doesn't fire or goes on missing sprees.

Raketen is so bad that we constantly see Axis players asking to buff it.

Being retreatable is also a bit of a double edged sword, it theoretically lets you escape with your Rak from a bad situation, but it also means that a Rak that the enemy HAS been able to decrew is much easier to steal, just like an MG or Mortar.

That is not a good point. The retreat function is a clear strength unless you want to argue that the Rak (as well as MGs and mortars) were stronger without. Due to the lack of shield it also doesn't matter if the crew spins it around or not. And while they might lose a model doing so, all the behaviour is completely predictable. If you know they need to spin around, you know you need to hit thag retreat button a second earlier. So if you lose the Raketenwerfer and get it stolen, it was a misplay. Just like any other team weapon that gets stolen.

Garrisoning the Rak is generally a bit pointless. It can't be made to target only vehicles, nor can it be made to hold fire completely. It often wastes fire on infantry, which is an issue when a vehicle then appears.

You can actually use it fairly well in a garrison since the patch. When entering a garrison it will fire at everything, but after a refacing order it will stick to its now default vehicle priority.

So if you got time to set it up (reface it 1-2 times) then it will actually work properly now.

Raketen is in good spot. No change need.

I play OST 2on2s. If I spot an uncrewed raketenwerfer on the field, I grab it. They're dirty strong buggers and they hit hard but they deffo need a lot more supervision than a PAK and they are best used with loads of micro.

They are in a good spot. No need to change anything.

A few people have pointed out that 55 range makes a big difference. Is this mostly in team games? Because in 1v1 which I play, the 55 range doesn't seem to make much difference at all.

A few people have pointed out that 55 range makes a big difference. Is this mostly in team games? Because in 1v1 which I play, the 55 range doesn't seem to make much difference at all.

Partially yes.
But also a big part is skill. Taking ground shots with 5m more range is quite valuable, also your ability to screen for ATGs influences how much those 5 meters matter. If you screen less well, then it does not matter as much. Team games have it a bit easier with screening in general, since the unit density is higher (meaning you are more likely to have a unit in front of the ATG even without microing much).

A few people have pointed out that 55 range makes a big difference. Is this mostly in team games? Because in 1v1 which I play, the 55 range doesn't seem to make much difference at all.

It's not necessarily because of the size of the game. It's because it forces the OKW player to actively manage his AT gun when trying to screen against Allied TDs, since they all outrange the Raketen.

You can actually use it fairly well in a garrison since the patch. When entering a garrison it will fire at everything, but after a refacing order it will stick to its now default vehicle priority.

So if you got time to set it up (reface it 1-2 times) then it will actually work properly now.

Oh, really? Nice to hear that this issue is (partially) fixed, then. Hopefully a solution will be found that means we won't need to fiddle around like that in the future, too.