USF Commander Revamp 2021

Infantry company simply needs to lose TOT. The ability is extremely cost efficient can, be used to delete enemy Lefh and to delete enemy truck with a barrage from Priest. That is simply too much utility for single commander.
(See Ele/ISU).

Why is that a problem?
" too much utility for single commander"? Come see the other German commanders

Vippers, in your ideal world how exactly is a USF supposed to counter an LEFH or even the trucks? ...

The idea is not removed the TOT ability from the game but to move to another commander. Priest can already deal LeFH/Trucks so the commander does need TOT.

...
On the USF commanders
....

Your analysis is quite accurate

Why is that a problem?
" too much utility for single commander"? Come see the other German commanders

This is the mentality that lead to power creep. If German commander are OP they simply need to nerf the same way Elefant got nerf.

Its a versatile tank that has the option of acting as a flanking tank or deep diver to take out enemy rocket artillery. Even if you don't use it as such, the option is there. I don't recall how much the M10 was (85 fuel maybe?) for 85 fuel, good speed and one shot killing rocket artillery is very powerful.

The core design of the tank is supposed to cheap and fast. It has the ability to supplement its speed.

The fact that you can get 2 M10s out for the price of 1 M36 +some odd fuel (?35) fuel is a testament to its strength.

The original post I responded to wanted to change the M10 drastically but I argue that it is already very powerful.

M10 is 90 fuel. What really need to be looked at in this commander are the sherman dozer and the barrage.
The dozer isn't any better than the dozer upgrede from UA and mech commanders and the 260mm barrage is mainly a waste of resources.

---

Infantry companie is specially design to counter emplacement with the priest and ToT. ToT is a barrage that only works on fixed targets, the delay between the call and first shell is so high that you can easily move your HMG or pack out of the area without suffer any damage. Knowing that we all understand why Vipper wants to remove it from the doctrine in his personal crusade vs anything that make an allied commander relevant.

Its a versatile tank that has the option of acting as a flanking tank or deep diver to take out enemy rocket artillery. Even if you don't use it as such, the option is there. I don't recall how much the M10 was (85 fuel maybe?) for 85 fuel, good speed and one shot killing rocket artillery is very powerful.

Yeah you can use it as a diver if you have recon informations. Imo the difference to flanking is to get a tank to the rear side of enemy tanks since there is no side armor. But for that you need speed + fast turret rotation. The Cromwell is a good example for a real flanking tank. The M10 is sort as a diver as you said. Its penetration is good enough frontally while its turrest rotation is too slow.

The fact that you can get 2 M10s out for the price of 1 M36 +some odd fuel (?35) fuel is a testament to its strength.
The original post I responded to wanted to change the M10 drastically but I argue that it is already very powerful.

Similar to StuG it is very cost effective (MP/FU) in countering armor. As you said you get almost two for one M36, but they have a time window where they are effective. In late game their population value will make them less desirable compared to Jacksons.

That is incorrect M10 cost 300 manpower 80 fuel


Priest can counter emplacements just fine, TOT is an overkill that would be much more useful in another commander.

Infantry company was just fines until someone decided that is would be a good idea to buff TOT which was actually not a good idea.

Currently TOT is one of the most cost efficient counter to emplacements something the commander can already cover with Priest and moving to another commander would simply increase the viability of another commander in larger modes.

The benefit of moving to another commander are more than losses of removing from Infantry company.


Both the basis and conclusion of your theory make little to no sense, for the reason I explained above. The comment are also non constructive.

You are suggesting nerfs and another commander breaking nerfs that you disguise with clever wording as "buffs". The commander is already underused in 1on1 and 2on2 and you want to nerf it further. That makes no sense at all. And your reason is that you don't like that a USF commander who specialises in artillery is able to get artillery. It sounds more like a rant than a balance suggestion. I would buff the priest and the commander to make it viable again, nerfing something that is underused makes no sense at all.

Infantry company is a strange name for what the commander is about,it should have been something like field artillery company, i believe. Anyway, as far as i see, most pp agree that the commander should focus on arty and remove TOT is again that mind set despite whatever you, Vipper, say. You cant expect pp to not bring in personal stuff when you keep suggesting change that again the majority thought while keep acting like you are the only guy who understand game design.

On the removing of tot from infantry coy, im strongly again that. The priest alone will never counter OKW forward base or LEFH, especially the LEFH. For a base building, you can have 2 Priest fire at the same time and still have a chance that the base survive and be fully repair before the cd. Yeah, it can be fire one after each other to prevent repair but there are still chance that the base survive. Having 3 priest is not a good ideal event in team game. Further more, Due to the limited range, on certain long map, priest cant reach what it need, this present most clearly when the target is the Lefh, which often build right outside of enemy base. To make things worse, a barrage from a priest will often just decrew the LEFH and if there are counter battery active, the priest can event be destroy right in the middle of its barrage. That make you end up picking an arty commander but still cant reliably counter enemy static play. In sort, TOT in the form of a LEFH counter is the major part that keep infantry coy viable in the calliop meta. On the other hand, ost have commander with LEFH and stuka dive bomb but i havent see any comment on that.

What i want with this commander, is that the "infantry" part, namely field defense and m1919 are replaced by some recon perk like RM flare to make it into a complete arty oriented. But, to be practical, i think they will just increase TOT to 200mu and be done, as the commander is mostly acceptable now.

Infantry company is a strange name for what the commander is about,it should have been something like field artillery company, i believe. Anyway, as far as i see, most pp agree that the commander should focus on arty and remove TOT is again that mind set despite whatever you, Vipper, say. You cant expect pp to not bring in personal stuff when you keep suggesting change that again the majority thought while keep acting like you are the only guy who understand game design.

On the removing of tot from infantry coy, im strongly again that. The priest alone will never counter OKW forward base or LEFH, especially the LEFH. For a base building, you can have 2 Priest fire at the same time and still have a chance that the base survive and be fully repair before the cd. Yeah, it can be fire one after each other to prevent repair but there are still chance that the base survive. Having 3 priest is not a good ideal event in team game. Further more, Due to the limited range, on certain long map, priest cant reach what it need, this present most clearly when the target is the Lefh, which often build right outside of enemy base. To make things worse, a barrage from a priest will often just decrew the LEFH and if there are counter battery active, the priest can event be destroy right in the middle of its barrage. That make you end up picking an arty commander but still cant reliably counter enemy static play. In sort, TOT in the form of a LEFH counter is the major part that keep infantry coy viable in the calliop meta. On the other hand, ost have commander with LEFH and stuka dive bomb but i havent see any comment on that.

What i want with this commander, is that the "infantry" part, namely field defense and m1919 are replaced by some recon perk like RM flare to make it into a complete arty oriented. But, to be practical, i think they will just increase TOT to 200mu and be done, as the commander is mostly acceptable now.

That is one way of looking at things but your argument works both ways

One picks a commander with Lefh to counter enemy artillery. Not only Lefh can not counter the Priest effectively but infatry commander come with one of most cost efficient combo that hard counters LeFH. Priest itself is much harder to be counter with an off map.

If TOT remains to infantry company than it should it should be closer to "Concentrated Fire Operation", "Railway Artillery Support" and have its CP increased to 12 and munition cost 200+.

One picks a commander with Lefh to counter enemy artillery. Not only Lefh can not counter the Priest effectively but infatry commander come with one of most cost efficient combo that hard counters LeFH. Priest itself is much harder to be counter with an off map.

So conclusively you want to nerf Infantry commander because you don't like that they counter your LeFH? You don't like that your LeFH doesn't counter the priest? I don't think that type of personal dislike is overall a good healthy approach to balance discussions. The whole commander is meant to counter static positions! Perhaps you should post in the OST commander revamp ideas on how to improve their commanders instead of nerfing underused USF ones that have clearly one job.

....

If TOT remains to infantry company than it should it should be closer to "Concentrated Fire Operation", "Railway Artillery Support" and have its CP increased to 12 and munition cost 200+.

Dude, who died and made you king? Why are you making demands in a thread for a faction you don't even play like "If this still exists it needs to be hugely cost prohibitive and have CP increased to some of the highest levels". There is zero logic in this vipper, zero. People have already explained up and down why the ability is there. You clearly want us to try and take out LefHs with an SPG that gets hard countered by CB without any reliable offmap. Please, stop the bad faith suggestions, I'm begging you.

There is nothing wrong if offmap needs a unit to finish the job.
Infantry company does not "need to lose" anything.
There is no such thing as "too much utility for a single commander" if the commander is focused on providing utility, if you disagree, I expect to see nerf luftwaffe supply doctrine in multiple ways from you soon, because its insane how much utility that commander is providing.

Also, infantry commander, seems like you do not seem to be aware of it, does not provide equivalent of ISU/ele to USF.

Why the hell would you nerf Luftwaffe supply? Nobody uses it already

And why are you comparing Luftwaffe supply, one of the worst Ostheer commanders, to
Infantry Company, one of the best USF commanders?

"Concentrated Fire Operation", "Railway Artillery Support" serve the same role as TOT. Slow firing precise shot vs structures. It is actually very logically that the abilities should be inline in cost and CP.

Since when that 4 shot of railway 12 second apart from each other with a scatter twice the size of an OKW base building has become "precise shot" ? And since when that those abilities are the same as TOT on being "Slow firing" ? Cause the last time i play USF, "Time on Target" is something that drop all the shells AT THE SAME TIME.

Since when that 4 shot of railway 12 second apart from each other with a scatter twice the size of an OKW base building has become "precise shot" ?

Railway has at least one precise shot. Shot fired have scatter but also have big AOE

And since when that those abilities are the same as TOT on being "Slow firing" ?

Time between smoke and first shot landing allows mobile unit to move out of they making the ability better vs static target

Cause the last time i play USF, "Time on Target" is something that drop all the shells AT THE SAME TIME.

That actually can support the suggestion of increasing CP and Cost.

Bottom line is that TOT has lower CP and MU with other abilities with same role for no good reason.

Why the hell would you nerf Luftwaffe supply? Nobody uses it already

And why are you comparing Luftwaffe supply, one of the worst Ostheer commanders, to
Infantry Company, one of the best USF commanders?

It provides a lot of utility in different ways.
The very thing vipper has claimed to be overpowered to the point where it can not exist on one single commander.
You kind of got my point tho, nerfing luftwaffe supply because it has too much utility is a stupid idea, just as nerfing infantry doctrine because of its utility.

USF Airborne Commander Revamp Ideas:

Pathfinders: Lower resource cost for a early scout unit, its too expensive for what it brings to the table. Also change into an infiltration unit because USF has none and because its not historically realistic for PFs to just walk onto the battlefield, there were no PFs walking onto the battle field after D-Day.

Beacons: Buff HP to 500, immune to small arms fire. Expand its recon aura.

.50cal Drop: Add a PF squad that drops with the weapon so we can crew it much faster with better sight. This will lead to easier identification of a unit and less burden on the USF player to get the weapon team on the front line

ATG drop: Change this into a British AT gun, for unit diversity.

Airborne squad: Add one more model to the airborne squad as they are very squishy before vet 2, balance team can experiment on if the squad dropping with 2xM1919 is too strong or balanced. No cost increase

Skillplane Loiter: Drop munitions to 65MU and extend the area coverage of the ability so Axis tanks cant just blitz out of it easily. Maybe change into a point and click targeting ability that would make the planes follow the vehicle where ever it goes. No change in damage profile, don't want it to be OP.



I think these changes are really cool and balance team should do them.