Soviet Commander Revamp 2021

Composition that has 2 damage sponge tanks and NO REPAIR UNITS will not deal with everything efficiently either, but you seem to be insistent here.

Yeah, forgot to mention the 2 engies your gonna have cause I though that was obvious.

Yeah, forgot to mention the 2 engies your gonna have cause I though that was obvious.

How are you going to squeeze 2 CEs into 2 spare pop you'll have?

How are you going to squeeze 2 CEs into 2 spare pop you'll have?

You don't need to have all 6 models on you ATG's or MG to make them work bro. And do the math your self. I Think I might have been a mg/atg more
but still is enough.

Composition that has 2 damage sponge tanks and NO REPAIR UNITS will not deal with everything efficiently either, but you seem to be insistent here.

Actually KV-1 is available in a commander with repair kits for conscripts one can repair them even without no "repair units".

7 men conscripts are actually superior to vanilla CE when it comes to repairs.

And the damage KV-1 does can not be ignored neither from infatry nor from medium tanks.

KV-1 has the same pop as Pz IV J although it superior and heavy tank. It should become inline with other heavy tanks like Churchill and have its pop increases.

16 would probably be enough.

The KV1 and P4 have different roles. The KV1 is less mobile and will basically never be able to flank a heavier tank. It also has a way larger target size. They excel in different situations.

The KV1 is slightly too strong but I'd rather wait for the received damage nerf and see if we need something from there.

The KV1 and P4 have different roles. The KV1 is less mobile and will basically never be able to flank a heavier tank. It also has a way larger target size. They excel in different situations.

Yes they have different roles KV-1 is closer to Churchill that has a pop of 19.
14 is simply to low for such a unit, increase it 16 make sense.

The KV1 is slightly too strong but I'd rather wait for the received damage nerf and see if we need something from there.

There might not be another patch.

The damage reduction is simply not enough.

Yes they have different roles KV-1 is closer to Churchill that has a pop of 19.
14 is simply to low for such a unit, increase it 16 make sense.

There might not be another patch.

The damage reduction is simply not enough.

So then those two tanks should not be compared in such a general manner.

A pop adjustment could work too, but for me the fact that we might not get a second larger patch works exactly the other way around: We currently have the KV1 in 3 commanders, two of which are far from meta (one gladly due to the B4). If we nerf the KV1 too much and can't patch it back up, these three commanders are basically gone. I'd rather nerf the KV1 from "too strong" to "slightly too strong" and keep three commanders viable instead of nerfing it to potentially UP and kick out three commanders forever.

So then those two tanks should not be compared in such a general manner.

A pop adjustment could work too, but for me the fact that we might not get a second larger patch works exactly the other way around: We currently have the KV1 in 3 commanders, two of which are far from meta (one gladly due to the B4). If we nerf the KV1 too much and can't patch it back up, these three commanders are basically gone. I'd rather nerf the KV1 from "too strong" to "slightly too strong" and keep three commanders viable instead of nerfing it to potentially UP and kick out three commanders forever.

I can +1 to that, especially since we are in a state where nothing really is truly "op" anymore in terms of "100% meta pick" like osttruppen were.

Despite some people still hoping and advocating for it, the time where we can afford to nerf units into irrelevance is long gone. At some point, people will have to learn to play and actually adjust their play and BO to what they are facing instead of repeating single BO against all factions on all maps, vs all doctrines and complaining every single time their golden formula does not work.

I don't think I have faced many KV1s in 2on2s recently. It would be a bad move to nerf the commanders further. Keep the game diverse!

So then those two tanks should not be compared in such a general manner.

As far as I understand pop is both related to role and power.

A pop adjustment could work too, but for me the fact that we might not get a second larger patch works exactly the other way around: We currently have the KV1 in 3 commanders, two of which are far from meta (one gladly due to the B4). If we nerf the KV1 too much and can't patch it back up, these three commanders are basically gone. I'd rather nerf the KV1 from "too strong" to "slightly too strong" and keep three commanders viable instead of nerfing it to potentially UP and kick out three commanders forever.

KV-1 have seen allot of action lately and having commander that that are "slightly too strong" than the rest imo is worse since once risk make 18 commanders less attractive.

KV1 seems to be the new meta in 2v2 and 4v4. It is being used like a Churchill, but with much less pop cap.
Maybe limiting it to max 1 per time (like other heavys) could be an option.

As far as I understand pop is both related to role and power.

It's only related to power. Or ideally it should be at least.

KV-1 have seen allot of action lately and having commander that that are "slightly too strong" than the rest imo is worse since once risk make 18 commanders less attractive.

With that reasoning you can nerf every single commander ability because the majority of commanders does not have it.
It also only applies if we assume the other 18 commanders are balanced, which won't be the case. We should hope and aim for having as many commanders as possible in an "acceptable window". The KV1 is a defining unit of all three commanders, nerfing the KV1 too much does not make 18 other commanders more desirable, it just decreases the maximum amount of acceptable commanders we can get in the best case scenario to 18.

Obviously if it stays too strong it is bad too, but personally I see Soviets players play commanders outside of the KV1. And the only doctrine that is regularly played is Guard Rifle Combined, which indicates that the KV1 is not so OP that it were worth picking a commander for it alone. Therefore we don't need the big double hammer to nerf it down and I'd rather go step by step. Which also makes other changes to these commanders much more predictable.

It's only related to power. Or ideally it should be at least.

Imo it is both. A TD which is a specialized unit and counter tanks should lower pop than main battle tank that can be both AI and AT, but we are drifting of topic a bit.

With that reasoning you can nerf every single commander ability because the majority of commanders does not have it.
It also only applies if we assume the other 18 commanders are balanced, which won't be the case. We should hope and aim for having as many commanders as possible in an "acceptable window". The KV1 is a defining unit of all three commanders, nerfing the KV1 too much does not make 18 other commanders more desirable, it just decreases the maximum amount of acceptable commanders we can get in the best case scenario to 18.

Obviously if it stays too strong it is bad too, but personally I see Soviets players play commanders outside of the KV1. And the only doctrine that is regularly played is Guard Rifle Combined, which indicates that the KV1 is not so OP that it were worth picking a commander for it alone. Therefore we don't need the big double hammer to nerf it down and I'd rather go step by step. Which also makes other changes to these commanders much more predictable.

Ideally firstly the unit will balance according to what it is facing and then the commander according to rest of commander of the faction so that the majority of them is at about the same level increases the number of meta commanders.

Obviously if it stays too strong it is bad too

Let me remind that penals were "OP" until they weren't and they only got buffs since that time and still no one semi-decent has any problem with them anymore.

KV-1 have seen similar re-emergence right now, but it'll go back to being just another tank with rec dmg to raw hp change as getting them back in action is faster now due to ce/pio repair speed buff with sweepers.

Once they'll have more downtime, they stop being so prominent, just like penals stopped being op all of sudden once people learned how to play against them.

Imo it is both. A TD which is a specialized unit and counter tanks should lower pop than main battle tank that can be both AI and AT, but we are drifting of topic a bit.

Population is there to "budget" which units you can fit into your army. That's the only purpose. That's why all heavies cost around the same map regardless of role and the PWerfer costs as much as a P4 despite having completely different roles.

Ideally firstly the unit will balance according to what it is facing and then the commander according to rest of commander of the faction so that the majority of them is at about the same level increases the number of meta commanders.

I agree. That would be the ideal case.
But as I laid out already, while the KV1 is certainly too strong, it does not completely break the balance. There are a lot of players that chose other meta commanders over Guard Rifle Combined, despite this commander bringing 3-4 good abilities to the table. I don't think Soviets have so many problematic commanders that KV1 does not get picked anymore.

The KV1 needs a nerf, but it is past the stage of multiple strong nerfs. The last changes it got was that it got buffed until people deemed it okay. It then got an indirect buff through repairs, meaning we need to revert a initial buff or apply a nerf. It is unlikely that this suddenly breaks the game so much that multiple decent nerfs are due.

I'd rather nerf the KV1 from "too strong" to "slightly too strong" and keep three commanders viable instead of nerfing it to potentially UP and kick out three commanders forever.

Well I'm not saying that KV1 itself is "too strong", I'm saying that army you can afford to field is "too strong" at least against Ost. I'm ok with how tanky it is, it's just the flexibility of the composition I say should be lowered a bit.

I see Soviets players play commanders outside of the KV1. And the only doctrine that is regularly played is Guard Rifle Combined, which indicates that the KV1 is not so OP

Well every one has access to that commander, no one has to buy it or grind for it. That is a large part why you mostly see KV1's from GMCA. You need to keep that in mind.

I agree. That would be the ideal case.
But as I laid out already, while the KV1 is certainly too strong, it does not completely break the balance. There are a lot of players that chose other meta commanders over Guard Rifle Combined, despite this commander bringing 3-4 good abilities to the table. I don't think Soviets have so many problematic commanders that KV1 does not get picked anymore.

Counterattack Tactics is really good in 2vs2. B4, Shocks, FMR and recon on top of the Kv-1. Its kinda hilarious. The only bad commander is Conscript support. And thats cause there are 3 dogshit abilities in it. Only the old Tiger ace could make this thing viable .

The Kv-1 has 14 popcap and costs 420 mp and 145 fuel. Pretty similar to P4J. But it has the defensive stats of the P5 not the P4. Sure its gun is slightly weaker, but it can threaten medium tanks. Ofc its not on P5 lvl, but something like 450 mp/150 fuel and 15/16 (Panther has 18) popcap seems more reasonable.

Can someone explain to me why the Kv-1 can survive 3 Pak43 shots? I thought 20% dmg reduction means, that it gets 960 effective HP. But thats not how it is ingame. The classic tank destroyer like Panther, JP4 or Jackson does 160 dmg per penetration shot. 160*0,8=128. 128*6 is 768 though. Thats below 800HP. So the Kv-1 can survive 7 instead of 6 shots. Thats on par with Tiger, IS-2 or ISU. On top of that you get 2 bonus armor bulletins to push your armor next to 300. I didnt test it with vet 1 active, cause the result could scare the puplic.

Was this intended? I always thought it has 960 HP like Panther or Pershing.