Top level player allegedly maphacking in CoH2

I mean... If the top players and career casters have made up a commitee and decided someone's cheating, that means people with better knowledge of the context and best ability have done the work for all of us. Just believe in them.

What makes you mapmakers and casual players believe that you have a say in this and actually be the one defending justice?

Ban him from the game AND the community. Let HIM deal with it.

Seeking has received very favorable treatment and I find it very strange how there are people around who claim he was treated unfairly.

AE quote from the video "Relic requare higher burden of proof then community member opinions". Lets rephrase it. Relic didnt find anything suspecios, but known names call this guy a cheater, therefore we take action in our hands and starting all this shit show.

Bottom-line is, community and relic didnt find a consensus. Denying or not, top community figures are fully belive that this guy is a cheater 100%. Even if they trying their best to say how sorry they are and how non-biased they are.

And the whole idea is, that even if Seeking gonna be proven innocent, in public eyes he still be a cheater, top community players (especially the ones who reported him) will belive that he is a cheater. Cheater who we was unable to prove guilty, but we know that he is one.

Even more, at this point (considering Relic was in contact) even if final community verdict will be not in Seeking favor, he most likely still wont be banned, because again Relic didnt find anything worth banning. Ofcouse if they wont do a reverse turn and ban him based on the community investigation, but this will be imo retarded. Even overwatch in CS:GO dont work like that.

In other words. Community figures werent able to ban him using Relic channels, so they decided to make this whole mess public, even before their investigations. They could have suspended him from tournamets untill everything is over and after everything create a post about this.

Unfair treatment lies in the fact that, when it comes to regular mortals, you are either banned or not banned. If you are banned, then you are banned. If you are not banned then nothing pointing towards violations and case is closed and all is done anonymously behind closed doors. Only if you are proven guilty and got banned, your steampage will be in a thread.

Btw on a side note, I didnt find that boosting someone or playing on their account is a community guideline violation. I know that your twink accounts will be banned if you were previosly banned in coh2, same might happen if you share your acc with a banned person.
If deadbolt wasnt banned from coh2 previously then objectively there is nothing criminal with him or seeking playing on a different accs.

That makes no sense to me as there wouldn't even be a lengthy investigation to begin with. Someone at Relic (or Sturmpanther idk) would see the clip and ban him immediately and there definitely wouldn't be a chance to appeal for the guy who is getting banned or do you think Sturmpanther gives every map hacker a chance to formulate a defense, "explaining" all the evidence presented. Seeking has received very favorable treatment and I find it very strange how there are people around who claim he was treated unfairly.

The fow edge cases are the only sus clips out there. every single other clip can be explained with context, game sense or luck. I doubt you would dig for those edge cases for a random maphacker and the other clips wouldnt be enough to ban anyone, atleast in my opinion.

PLus any random wouldnt have a tournament reputation (thats prooven to be clean) that might indicate that some sketchy situations might be skill and not a hack.

The comparison is overall pretty lackluster

Lol witch hunt nothing less. He damaged himself his reputation by playing on a shared account with a cheater. Absolutely nothing of this would have happened if he did not.

Seeking playing on deadbolts account wasnt secret before the maphack accusations came up, so it seems thats not the reason for his damaged reputation

Again it really seems that people haven't understood why this was made public, I'll reiterate:

1) There are 3 1v1 tournaments in the next six weeks, and there was no action from Relic on this issue with three days to go so I had to act fast whilst being as comprehensive as possible. To possibly protect the integrity of events.

2) A swathe of players had already discussed this between themselves including many of Seeking's rivals, rumours spread like wild fire. This was going to go public eventually anyway.

3) If I took any action or launched any investigation, word would get out, and given the popularity of Seeking, it would have created a far worse shit storm. Transparency and openness are the only ways in which I can deal with this so everyone has access to the information, and had less room to speculate.

4) Seeking SHOULD have been notified before hand I have personally apologised to him about this. However with evidence in the process of being gathered, and with the three days I was given before the tournament started this was not possible. As of Friday before any new evidence has been established Seeking has been warned well in advance.


On Relic not banning any one here: with them hiring multiple new CMs etc it's obvious they're heading in a new direction at the moment, and that means that it's not about their existing standard of proof required, it's that they've got new staff and new policies. Whilst they should be doing this in the first place and people like Sturmpanther shouldn't have to do this job, it's going to have serious teething issues transitioning. I feel with the Satup/Deadbolt account showing 100% obvious map hacking and having known connections to three VAC bans... not being banned officially, that is a scary prospect indeed, and shows why we need to look after our own tournaments for now at least.

That makes no sense to me as there wouldn't even be a lengthy investigation to begin with. Someone at Relic (or Sturmpanther idk) would see the clip and ban him immediately and there definitely wouldn't be a chance to appeal for the guy who is getting banned or do you think Sturmpanther gives every map hacker a chance to formulate a defense, "explaining" all the evidence presented. Seeking has received very favorable treatment and I find it very strange how there are people around who claim he was treated unfairly.

To be fair here, Seeking is still an actually good player and actively trying to conceal his map hacking. Most of the people that get banned are idiots that stare at the opponents base every time they spawn a unit.

No. I'm not here to defend anything or anyone. I made that pretty clear. I didn't even bring up the boosting because this thread isn't about that but since it has been mentioned - obviously the boosting isn't good but it's also unrelated to the reason he has been barred from participating in ML events and not nearly as despicable as maphacking (if that part is true).

It seems you haven't got a complete grasp on this situation but are wading in anyway?

He hasn't been barred from participating in ML events at present, merely suspended whilst this is investigated, perhaps the word suspended means differently in the US, but in the UK it is applied when someone is merely accused and no action has yet been taken.

The boosting is very related to all this, he played a lot of 1v1 and 2v2 games on the account and computer of a player that is now shown to have map hacked.- how is that not related?

Again perhaps you should research more thoroughly before wading in so deeply?

Well if we abstract from something I personally dislike about all of this, I still thought that Relic on their end still have a final word about bans.

To be clear, I thought that, lets say, someone got reported to Sturmpanther, he reviews replay\clip then pass it to relic and they on their end use some sort of a software to check suspect. At least relic claimed to have such software and based on it they are giving their bans.

If its not like that and in reality its more simple and chaotic, then fair enouth, my hate might be unjustified.

Still dont like the publicity, but if it was made public only to prevent tournaments from being ruined, then fair enouth I guess.

But honestly for real, all of this has such a feeling of "ye we know he cheats". It would have been nice, if all of this had some sort of neutral context at least in public, without personal feelings.

Vac bans from 6 years ago. Are you on drugs? I even have vac in one of my account , because I used cracked mw2 maps.

Vac bans from 6 years ago. Are you on drugs? I even have vac in one of my account , because I used cracked mw2 maps.

Do you have three VAC bans across 12 separate steam accounts?

Do you have three VAC bans across 12 separate steam accounts?

Just one, but it does not shown up to other people
In youtube I saw 3 accounts, and those were 5/6 years ago around the same time

It seems you haven't got a complete grasp on this situation but are wading in anyway?

He hasn't been barred from participating in ML events at present, merely suspended whilst this is investigated, perhaps the word suspended means differently in the US, but in the UK it is applied when someone is merely accused and no action has yet been taken.

The boosting is very related to all this, he played a lot of 1v1 and 2v2 games on the account and computer of a player that is now shown to have map hacked.- how is that not related?

Again perhaps you should research more thoroughly before wading in so deeply?

I have a good enough grasp of the situation to have formed the opinion that the initial way this was handled was not optimal. Again, my opinion. I understand the pressure that you were under and realize that you have since apologized to Seeking about some of the ways things were handled (which sort of makes my point for me).

You could argue that it was going to go public either way but there’s a big difference in making a damning YouTube video, as one of the most prominent figures in the CoH2 community, publicly showing a list of respected community members (without their permission or knowledge) who have given their opinions on the situation, and throwing the maphacker label on him versus his rivals spreading rumors or alleging the same. Your opinion on it carries more weight, which in my opinion means you have to tread more carefully because lots of people are likely to believe what you’ve said at face value.

As for barred versus suspended, we’re saying the same thing with different words. When I said he was barred from ML, I meant that currently he is unable to participate. Call it suspended if you prefer that but we’re saying the same thing in the end. And as I mentioned earlier, this is 100% your prerogative and for the record it’s a decision that I agree with. I simply disagreed with the way this way made public given the consequences *IF* it turns out that Seeking is not guilty. Because at this point his reputation is likely irreparably tarnished. I feel like you could’ve quietly suspended him in the background, he could’ve said “oh I can’t participate because something came up”, the investigation could have happened, and then the results made public if he was guilty. But yeah, just my opinion, don’t take it personally, you’re doing the best you can.

I'm not going to argue against you in general here, hind sight is 20:20 and it's very easy to pick apart my approach to this minefield, you have a right to your opinion.

(without their permission or knowledge)

The only people that this applies one being Stormless who I genuinely forgot to ask and since apologised to, and a few others who missed the relevant message in the long ass PM chain, it was mentioned though.

What makes you mapmakers and casual players believe that you have a say in this and actually be the one defending justice?

My personal interest in this story is two fold:
- How exactly does the game work?
- How much proof is required to keep tournaments feeling legit?

HOW DOES THE GAME WORK:
Most people know a lot about computers. How did they learn? Stuff broke and they had to figure it out. No one learns when stuff is working correctly.

In the last few days I have thought about and learned many different things about this game and how it operates. This is why people like Sturmpanther knows way more than a new player. He has worked thru these problems many times and learned each time.

But no one knows everything and can see every possible side to the story.

And who is going to spend weeks looking at this stuff to prove/disprove theories for free?

Most people will watch the AE video and dismiss Seeking as a cheater without much thought or work. But if you sit and go thru each scenario frame by frame you may come to a different conclusion.


HOW MUCH PROOF IS REQUIRED:
Tournaments require that all players are clean. If anyone is suspect and that person does well, the whole tournament was a waste of time and is ruined.

You young guys should lookup the SNL skit where they had the first person to ruin things. Like this guys says "I used to pickup hitch hikers then one day I thought I should kill them." Now no one wants to hitch hike. One person cheating ruins the whole show. It is what is wrong with society. People figured this out millenia ago and started doing things like chopping off your hands if you steal. It is that important to never be the one person to bring it all down. Dont be that guy.

For Relic to ban a player should require a lot of proof. Who cares if you do well in automatch.

A tournament may not require as much proof.

For what it's worth Deadbolt was also banned in Coh1 for cheating. He played under ip4k (iplayforkeeps) and had 100+ win streaks before he was busted. When I saw him start playing this and shot onto the leaderboards I was already suspect. Then this happened.

If Deadbolt is actually his (Seekings) uncle he keeps poor company. That dude is sketch as fuck.

Someone asking about ip4k

Gr.org replay

those "my uncle, brother, cousin[...]" stories
its an old meme but ovbiously still relevant

good post

Lmao I had no idea about the connection between ip4k and deadbolt today.
*Edit*: seems to be a case of copying the name. I don't think this severely undermines my point, but it does take away from it nonetheless. Still, the connections between Seeking and his uncle and the maphacking of the other account(s) and the VAC bans cast significant doubt on Seeking.


Patterns of behavior are important for things like this imo. Kevin Spacey hasn't been convicted of anything but the pattern of behavior over decades is damning. (I'm by no means calling anyone here a sexual predator don't take this the wrong way).

The connections between accounts, the other VAC bans, and the pattern of cheating over many years is enough for me when combined with just the few most suspicious clips. And this discussion isn't (or shouldn't be) about banning from the game's ladder, just from the Master League (and other) tournaments.




As I see it what A_E did was the best option to take. What were the other options?
1) Say nothing and do nothing
2) Say nothing but prevent Seeking from playing in the tournaments for now (via PM); wait for Relic?
3) Make a short announcement but give no reason/false reason for Seeking not playing

Option 1 leaves criticism for later and sacrifices the integrity of the ML tournaments and A_E's reputation in the coh community.
Option 2 would lead to rumor spreading and Seeking unable to defend himself effectively or having to do so over and over again to different people. Who knows when Relic would get back to community members about a tournament player maphacking?
Option 3 is lying or lying by omission. I don't think A_E is the kind of person to want to do that especially when it comes to coh2 and the ML.

Were mistakes made along the way? Yeah. But I get the impression that AE doesn't have the time to make an impeccably edited 40 minute video essay in the middle of the work week. I guess he could've made the google doc longer and put screenshots in it but that takes a lot of work too. Easier to just pull up your screen with the proper window visible.

Lmao I had no idea about the connection between ip4k and deadbolt today.

It's been a few days since that happened... he was probably counting on people forgetting with all the weird smurfing and account switching.

I was on my own streak of 20+ against brits that ended against... Deadbolt.

Most people will watch the AE video and dismiss Seeking as a cheater without much thought or work. But if you sit and go thru each scenario frame by frame you may come to a different conclusion.

For Relic to ban a player should require a lot of proof. Who cares if you do well in automatch.
A tournament may not require as much proof.

I don't really have the obcession of proving cheaters cheating. It'll only increase legit community's frustration and give what the cheaters want - attention. Because...

...frankly, no matter how suspecious the video presented look, it'll NEVER be proof of someone cheating. Because the cheater can always defend himself by saying "I'm just cheat-like." "It's luck"\"coincidences", etc. The actual proof is on the cheater's computer not on the servers. This community doesn't have the budget and rights to investigate, I suppose.

I agree mostly with your 2nd point though I want to add how I see this incident-

AE videos are NOT proofs. The document is a package of cheat-speculating narrative supported by top players, And it's pretty damn convincing. Then to me, it's more than enough to ban someone from his tournament since we've came this far...?

Personally, I've been playing games for 15+ years and have never been banned by mistake once so I stand by the strictiest environment towards cheating accusations.

It's been a few days since that happened... he was probably counting on people forgetting with all the weird smurfing and account switching.

I was on my own streak of 20+ against brits that ended against... Deadbolt.

The way I understood it IPlayForKeeps was an infamous top ranking (universally agreed upon) maphacker, while Deadbolt just copied his name, is this correct?

Because as far as I know IPlayForKeeps was British, while Deadbolt is German.

The way I understood it IPlayForKeeps was an infamous top ranking maphacker, while Deadbolt just copied his name, is this correct?

Because as far as I know IPlayForKeeps was British, while Deadbolt is German.

Could be correct, that part I don't remember