Snare Inconsistency.

The Bald Australian Man's recent video on snare inconsistency raises some questions. I think most of this was common knowledge, but the fact that some allied snares can't kill vehicles upon deflection was news to me.

Questions raised:

• Why are snares so inconsistent between factions?
  
• Why is the "same" ability (Faust) between multiple units quite so different?
  
• Is there ANY reason at all that a snare deflecting (only for some factions) should be unable to kill a vehicle?
  
• IS there really any reason snares should have a penetration value/deflection damage at all?
  
• Why is there such a disparity between the snare cooldown between factions?
  
  

I'd argue that snares ought to be made more consistent across the board, and some of these pointlessly esoteric differences should be removed. Specifically:

• All snares should do 100 damage (or 80 damage, if you prefer)
  
• Penetration for all snares should be set at 10000, to guarantee penetrations. Alternatively, make deflection damage equal to the snare's "regular" damage. The latter would mean the deflection animation would still occasionally play, which would be nice.
  
• All snares should either be made to be unable to kill vehicles (Or just mediums and up) or all snares should be made to always kill vehicles upon reducing their HP to 0. This particular inconsistency MUST go.
  
• Grenadiers retaining their longer snare range is reasonable, due to their smaller squad size and lack of sprint (specifically comparing them to Conscripts) though this should be indicated as being different to the Osttruppen and Volksgrenadier fausts through different naming. "Panzerfaust 100" vs "Panzerfaust 60", for example. (Or "Panzerfaust" vs "Faustpatrone")
  
• The balance team could consider somewhat standardising snare cooldowns between the axis and allied factions... unless there's some specific reason they're different.
  
  

A last request would be that the Riflemen and Panzerfusilier AT grenades be given a more distinct animation, as it stands they don't appear to have a specific animation for doing this, and instead just fire their rifle. I would personally suggest simply using the Grenadier/Rear Echelon Rifle Grenade animation, though I'm uncertain if there are any timing differences that would crop up. This last suggestion is less important than the others, and is more just a visual improvement.

Please feel free to make your opinions known below.

Tightrope is a Kiwi

Anyways, I agree with standardizing snares. However, for snare range, one thing to consider is wind-up time. Soviet AT grenades are tossed much quicker than Volksgrenadiers fire their panzerfaust.

If anything 0HP tank surviving should be fixed.

well it could get an abandon maybe ? it could be helpful if its' controlled to steal a tank , if u could plan to kill a tank with it , it might become an asset, and btw i would fix at nades in general to be more similar , why only 45 deflection damage for osther ?

Being able to bounce on armor is good.

Comparing CD at vet 0 is rather misleading since certain units get CD bonus via veterancy.

Not being able to kill vehicles is an oversight that should be removed.

Behavior with smoke or shot blocker should also be fixed.

saw the video the other day and it kind of gave me coh1 flashbacks...
deflection damage not being able to kill sounds like a relic from the past (!) and should have no place in the here and now. hence i'm all for standardizing handheld AT and tank deflection damage alike.

also big shoutout to tightrope for the detective work and video!

Tightrope is a Kiwi

Anyways, I agree with standardizing snares. However, for snare range, one thing to consider is wind-up time. Soviet AT grenades are tossed much quicker than Volksgrenadiers fire their panzerfaust.

Now that you mention it, His accent is kind of obviously Kiwi and not Convict, not sure why i wrote that he was Australian.

Regarding snare speeds: This is arguably a balance thing, and less a consistency thing, i suppose. I personally wouldn't oppose them all being standardised, however.

Being able to bounce on armor is good.

Comparing CD at vet 0 is rather misleading since certain units get CD bonus via veterancy.

Not being able to kill vehicles is an oversight that should be removed.

Behavior with smoke or shot blocker should also be fixed.

Why is that good? It just makes snares (Which are an utility ability, not really a "damage" ability) less consistent. I don't think there's any real reason for them to not always output the damage they're meant to.

Cooldown reductions for snares from vet could well just be removed, and they all just be standardised.

Which behaviour is that? That you still complete your snare even if you lose sight on the vehicle?

well it could get an abandon maybe ? it could be helpful if its' controlled to steal a tank , if u could plan to kill a tank with it , it might become an asset, and btw i would fix at nades in general to be more similar , why only 45 deflection damage for osther ?

An abandon for every snare kill is probably too strong, and if its just caused randomly on kills from a snare that doesn't entirely solve the abandon issue. If this were to happen, what I'd suggest is that snares can only take a tank down to 0 HP, but if they then hit a 0 HP vehicle they then would cause an abandon. You then need two snares back to back to cause an abandon. (This may still be too powerful/cheap)

....

Why is that good? It just makes snares (Which are an utility ability, not really a "damage" ability) less consistent.

I don't think there's any real reason for them to not always output the damage they're meant to.

It make armor matter.

Cooldown reductions for snares from vet could well just be removed, and they all just be standardised.

Actually the system is ok, different get different vet bonuses. The only AT greande that need to be look at is RoE since it has sort range and long CD.

Which behaviour is that? That you still complete your snare even if you lose sight on the vehicle?

Faust tend to cancel while AT grenades do not. This can be a real problem in map like wolfeze with bush shotblockers.

It make armor matter.

Yes, but on the other hand there are a lot of other (stun) abilities where armor does not matter at all.
They're all thematically named to excuse this, but gameplay-wise it does not make any more sense than snares.

Actually the system is ok, different get different vet bonuses. The only AT greande that need to be look at is RoE since it has sort range and long CD.

Here I'd say it depends. Do we want all factions to have the ability to snare similarly often? If so, RoE should get the fastest CD of all. If not, we need to apply different cool downs depending on the faction.

But at the moment I don't see much sense in units needing to earn fast CD with vet while others have it by default.
On the other hand the CD of snares rarely matters anyway. Or at least the difference of those couple of seconds that Allies can get via veterancy.

Just came to my mind:

Is there any realistic reason that snares do 20 extra damage upon penetration?

I mean, yes, LVs like T70, Puma etc can be killed with 4 instead of 5 snares. The chances of this happening are very low though. 222 and 251 might be slightly easier to finish off with small arms fire.

But for all other units? Mediums upwards there is no way those 20 additional damage will have any meaning. The only scenario I see is a vet3 firefly shooting one shot and both tulips at a medium tank, which can then be finished off by two HEAT grenades. But to be honest this already stretches the imagination very, VERY far.

ptrs,zook, etc deflection damage ?

Just came to my mind:

Is there any realistic reason that snares do 20 extra damage upon penetration?

I mean, yes, LVs like T70, Puma etc can be killed with 4 instead of 5 snares. The chances of this happening are very low though. 222 and 251 might be slightly easier to finish off with small arms fire.

But for all other units? Mediums upwards there is no way those 20 additional damage will have any meaning. The only scenario I see is a vet3 firefly shooting one shot and both tulips at a medium tank, which can then be finished off by two HEAT grenades. But to be honest this already stretches the imagination very, VERY far.

Yes there is 800 HP vehicles will not get snared unless 2 snare penetrate.

Should 800 HP Vehicles get 2 snare to engine damage? or should we stick to 3 snare to engine damage? Having that be consistent would be REALLY NICE.

Affected vehicles are Comet, KV-1, T-34/85 I believe. Maybe Dozered Sherman.

Yes there is 800 HP vehicles will not get snared unless 2 snare penetrate.

Good point. But this should really get fixed.

Suggested change:

Snares do 100 damage, regardless of deflection.

Medium and heavy vehicle snare thresholds are now 74%, rather than 75%. For medium vehicles this means that two snares, or one AT shot and a snare cause engine damage, the same as is current (Regardless of deflection)

For 800HP vehicles this means that the HP threshold is now 592 rather than 600 for a snare to succeed, requiring either an AT shot and a snare, or three snares, up from two (or three, dependent on whether one snare deflected), making everything entirely consistent, while maintaining 800HP vehicles' slightly more resilience vs snares.

Good point. But this should really get fixed.

I don't see as an issue.

Higher HP/armor vehicles have a chance to avoid being snare so they actually benefit from their armor vs low tech mainline infantries.

The only issue I see is not dying when reaching 0 HP.

I don't see as an issue.

Higher HP/armor vehicles have a chance to avoid being snare so they actually benefit from their armor vs low tech mainline infantries.

The only issue I see is not dying when reaching 0 HP.

Because it is highly inconsistent and not properly communicated to the player.
Such important game mechanics that are shared across all factions could be somewhat standardized.

Because it is highly inconsistent and not properly communicated to the player.
Such important game mechanics that are shared across all factions could be somewhat standardized.

All snare have penetration values and deflection damage. They are simply different values and there design reason for some of those difference.

To me it like saying all ATG should have the same penetration, range and ROF values. They simply do not at least imo.

The only inconsistency imo are:
the kill at 0 HP which is a inconsistency in the mechanism and imo it should be fixed
the smoke/shot blocker behavior which is very annoying

and maybe
the penetration values/damage on deflection damage of fausts

I would consider improving the Ro.E. AT grenade and possibly fix the aim times of AT rifles grenades (Riflemen/PF can't remember if they fixed that one)

imo this is someting that should be consistent across all factions at a base level. damage shouldn't be variable, and IMO bounces shouldn't be a thing. heavy tanks already have large health pools and thick armour to keep those health pools topped up, i think if you fall below the threshold and get snared, there should be no RNG as to the effect. RNG in mines has ben done away with, it should be done away with in snares as well.

all snares working the same, except say range and timing (and animations for obvious reasons) simply makes sense. we really need to move a3way from this million different versions of the same thing crap we have going on and streamline. this makes it less likely for things, like some AT nades bouncing and not killing 0hp tanks from going under the radar.

Different penetration and deflection values are a leftover from classic Soviets v Ostheer balance. High penetration low deflection damage Ostheer is good versus mediums where they will always penetrate, where low penetration high deflection Soviets are good against heavy tanks, where they always do double the deflection damage. Despite adding 3 new factions to the game I don't think it's really needed to change this balance. I don't really care one way or the other though, there is a good argument to standardize this.

Failing to kill vehicles at 0 hp is just silly though. Snareing medium and heavy tanks to death is already hard/rare enough. There is no reason to make it convoluted based on equaling out to exactly 0 health or deflection.