Snare Inconsistency.

Being able to bounce on armor is good.

In that case Faust penetration should probably be lowered so that it actually has a chance to bounce on something that isn't IS2 or ISU

In that case Faust penetration should probably be lowered so that it actually has a chance to bounce on something that isn't IS2 or ISU

There are more vehicles with high armor like Comet, Churchill, Pershing, KV-1, KV-8, KV-2...

Keep in mind that when it bounce Ostheer Fuast does 45 damage and AT grenades does 80 so higher penetration comes at price.

I don't see as an issue.

Higher HP/armor vehicles have a chance to avoid being snare so they actually benefit from their armor vs low tech mainline infantries.

The only issue I see is not dying when reaching 0 HP.

i agree with vipper.

its only the 0 HP issue that needs a look at.

otherwise i prefer to keep the different flavors. relic please help!

All snare have penetration values and deflection damage. They are simply different values and there design reason for some of those difference.

To me it like saying all ATG should have the same penetration, range and ROF values. They simply do not at least imo.

The only inconsistency imo are:
the kill at 0 HP which is a inconsistency in the mechanism and imo it should be fixed
the smoke/shot blocker behavior which is very annoying

and maybe
the penetration values/damage on deflection damage of fausts

I would consider improving the Ro.E. AT grenade and possibly fix the aim times of AT rifles grenades (Riflemen/PF can't remember if they fixed that one)

I do see where you are coming from, but in my opinion these snares are utility abilities that cover a core mechanic of the game: immobilizing vehicles. They should work reliably. The difference of doing 20 damage more or less is virtually invisible, the (double) snare still works if they bounce in basically all other occasions except for what basically boils down to the Brummbar and Comet (so the player fully expects a vehicle to be snared), but yet if it does not work the game is just perceived as buggy. None of these differences are noted down anywhere, and from a gameplay POV they don't make much sense either.

Overall it is a rather minor issue though, but still an issue.

I agree with the bottom points.

I do see where you are coming from, but in my opinion these snares are utility abilities that cover a core mechanic of the game: immobilizing vehicles. They should work reliably. The difference of doing 20 damage more or less is virtually invisible, the (double) snare still works if they bounce in basically all other occasions except for what basically boils down to the Brummbar and Comet (so the player fully expects a vehicle to be snared), but yet if it does not work the game is just perceived as buggy. None of these differences are noted down anywhere, and from a gameplay POV they don't make much sense either.

Overall it is a rather minor issue though, but still an issue.

I agree with the bottom points.

To me the rule should be the same vehicles will get engine damage under 75% HP and die at 0 HP, but that irrelevant to deflection damage and penetration values.

The not dying to a snare at 0hp should be fixed. Though i didnt even know this to excist

The rest doesnt really need fixing. I never felt cheated that axis snares always pen allied stock armour but can avoid it behind shot blockers and for example conscripts can bounce of a p4 or panther but arent effected by shot blockers.

Not everything needs to be brought inline with or standerdized. Axis tanks in general have more armour and should count even when snared.

The not dying to a snare at 0hp should be fixed. Though i didnt even know this to excist

The rest doesnt really need fixing. I never felt cheated that axis snares always pen allied stock armour but can avoid it behind shot blockers and for example conscripts can bounce of a p4 or panther but arent effected by shot blockers.

Not everything needs to be brought inline with or standerdized. Axis tanks in general have more armour and should count even when snared.

Why SHOULDN'T it be standardised? There's no reason for snares to be inconsistent/random at all in their mechanics. Allied snares bouncing doesn't add anything interesting to the game, it just causes frustration. If you want Axis and Allied snares to be balanced differently it should be in a consistent way (i.e allied snares are cheaper, but cause less damage (to the point they don't two-shot 800hp vehicle's engines)), though I don't think Axis and Allied snares SHOULD be different in their mechanics at all.

Why SHOULDN'T it be standardised? There's no reason for snares to be inconsistent/random at all in their mechanics. Allied snares bouncing doesn't add anything interesting to the game, it just causes frustration. If you want Axis and Allied snares to be balanced differently it should be in a consistent way (i.e allied snares are cheaper, but cause less damage (to the point they don't two-shot 800hp vehicle's engines)), though I don't think Axis and Allied snares SHOULD be different in their mechanics at all.

Interacting with armor is neither inconsistent nor random...It like saying ATG are random and inconsistent because they have different penetration values.

Not causing engine damage at 75% or dying at 0 HP is an inconstancy and should be fixed.

Interacting with armor is neither inconsistent nor random...It like saying ATG are random and inconsistent because they have different penetration values.

Not causing engine damage at 75% or dying at 0 HP is an inconstancy and should be fixed.

Nobody said anything against the 75% mark.

But what is the reason then that Axis (Grens have some limited trade off, Volks none at all) get in general better snares than Allies for the same price and for the same units (i.e. mainline infantry)

Nobody said anything against the 75% mark.

But what is the reason then that Axis (Grens have some limited trade off, Volks none at all) get in general better snares than Allies for the same price and for the same units (i.e. mainline infantry)

Not really.

AT grenades work in smoke and shot blockers, faust does not.

AT grenades have lower penetration but more deflection damage.

Which is better is simply situational.

I have lost grenadier from trying to faust repeatedly only to canceled by shot blockers and at that moment I was wishing for an AT grenade...

Interacting with armor is neither inconsistent nor random...It like saying ATG are random and inconsistent because they have different penetration values.

Not causing engine damage at 75% or dying at 0 HP is an inconstancy and should be fixed.

ATGs are primarily interested in damaging units, and so interactions with unit armour make sense. Snares are not primarily a "damage dealer" ability, their main goal is to cause engine damage. This is made less consistent by the fact that they have a chance to deflect, which can cause them to sometimes not cause engine damage in the expected number of strikes. This part of the interaction doesn't add anything to the game.

The mechanics behind snares require that they cause damage, as being snared requires that a (medium or heavy) vehicle reach 75% health, but due to this they should not cause a random amount of damage.

If you can fathom a way to ensure that snares reliably cause engine damage in x number of strikes on a given vehicle regardless of whether they deflect or penetrate, then I'd be "happy" to see their penetration/deflection damage values stay as they are. I mean, if all you want is Allied snares to be weaker than Axis ones, then just have allied snares always do 80 damage, and Axis ones always do 100, making units with health equal to or greater than the panther more resistant to allied snares than equivalent allied ones are to Axis snares. Snares can be balanced differently without being random.

I still think all snares should be standardised, however. I really don't think there's any need at all for Allies to have weaker ones than the Axis.

Not really.

AT grenades work in smoke and shot blockers, faust does not.

AT grenades have lower penetration but more deflection damage.

Which is better is simply situational.

I have lost grenadier from trying to faust repeatedly only to canceled by shot blockers and at that moment I was wishing for an AT grenade...

This is the sort of inconsistency that shouldn't exist. It isnt explained anywhere, and there is no meaningful justification that different snares should have different rules regarding shot/sight blockers.

Also: Gren fausts have higher penetration/lower deflection damage. Volk fausts have slightly lower penetration than Gren fausts, but higher penetration, and the same deflection damage as all other snares... It isnt even a "faust" trait.

Not really.

AT grenades work in smoke and shot blockers, faust does not.

I was talking about damage and pen primarily. Soft factors like usability and availability are a slightly different topic, but here only Soviet Conscript builds have similar to even easier "use" of snares.

AT grenades have lower penetration but more deflection damage.

Which is better is simply situational.

First this is only true for the Grenadier Faust as I already noted, and second Fausts pens (almost) every non-doc vehicle that Allies can field. At this point they basically do a guaranteed 100 damage.

At this point they basically do a guaranteed 100 damage.

And soviets do a guaranteed 80 damage. They take the same number of hits to snare a vehicle either way, unless it's a heavy tank where the gren faust is only going to be doing 40 damage. The only axis vehicle that has 800 health so it requires 2 100 damage snares is the Brumbar, which has high frontal armor so it would probably bounce atleast one faust-tier snare anyway.

I was talking about damage and pen primarily. Soft factors like usability and availability are a slightly different topic, but here only Soviet Conscript builds have similar to even easier "use" of snares.


First this is only true for the Grenadier Faust as I already noted, and second Fausts pens (almost) every non-doc vehicle that Allies can field. At this point they basically do a guaranteed 100 damage.

From what I can work out, there's around a 9~% chance a gren faust will bounce off of the front armour of an M4A3 Sherman, Cromwell, Centaur, or Firefly from absolute max range. It's not hugely significant, and certainly a much better chance than allied snares, but I think its worth mentioning.

Either way, I really do think they should just dispense with the whole penetration system for snares, I don't think there's any reason for it here.

(I'm working this out with the assumption that penetration is calculated from when the Faust is targeted, rather than being calculated when it actually hits. I'm approximating pen at 18 range as around 147, which is probably a bit low, actually. "Far" range for the faust is 30, but it only has 18 range. Chances are more like 13% if it's calculated when the projectile actually strikes.)

EDIT:

And soviets do a guaranteed 80 damage. They take the same number of hits to snare a vehicle either way, unless it's a heavy tank where the gren faust is only going to be doing 40 damage. The only axis vehicle that has 800 health so it requires 2 100 damage snares is the Brumbar, which has high frontal armor so it would probably bounce atleast one faust-tier snare anyway.

Then why not just give allied snares 80 damage, and Fausts 100, rather than bothering with the penetration/deflection system here, if this is the desired interaction?

(Also, the Jagdpanzer has 800HP at vet2)

There are more vehicles with high armor like Comet, Churchill, Pershing, KV-1, KV-8, KV-2...

Keep in mind that when it bounce Ostheer Fuast does 45 damage and AT grenades does 80 so higher penetration comes at price.

Eh it's a price I'd gladly pay. Failing a snare because of no penetration >>>>>>> 35 extra damage when it means the difference between killing a tank or not. 35 Extra deflection damage is much more rarely going to mean the difference between a kill or not. Not to mention that Armored skirts on mediums make it happen more frequently on a game to game basis given the frequency that you see medium tanks versus doctrinal heavies or late game premiums for Brits.

Then why not just give allied snares 80 damage, and Fausts 100, rather than bothering with the penetration/deflection system here, if this is the desired interaction?

(Also, the Jagdpanzer has 800HP at vet2)

Right now the AT-grenades are better against high armor targets, and the fausts are better against medium targets, barely, where it takes the same number of snares to snare the tank anyways regardless of 40 extra damage. It has literally never been an issue in 8 years but is being brought up with this snare bug where they don't kill 0 health units. I don't see a significant enough reason to standardize these snares.

Of course, this assumes the 0 health tanks is fixed and the deflection damage not killing tanks is also fixed.

ATGs are primarily interested in damaging units, and so interactions with unit armour make sense. Snares are not primarily a "damage dealer" ability, their main goal is to cause engine damage. This is made less consistent by the fact that they have a chance to deflect, which can cause them to sometimes not cause engine damage in the expected number of strikes. This part of the interaction doesn't add anything to the game.

The mechanics behind snares require that they cause damage, as being snared requires that a (medium or heavy) vehicle reach 75% health, but due to this they should not cause a random amount of damage.

If you can fathom a way to ensure that snares reliably cause engine damage in x number of strikes on a given vehicle regardless of whether they deflect or penetrate, then I'd be "happy" to see their penetration/deflection damage values stay as they are. I mean, if all you want is Allied snares to be weaker than Axis ones, then just have allied snares always do 80 damage, and Axis ones always do 100, making units with health equal to or greater than the panther more resistant to allied snares than equivalent allied ones are to Axis snares. Snares can be balanced differently without being random.

I still think all snares should be standardised, however. I really don't think there's any need at all for Allies to have weaker ones than the Axis.

With 160 total damage 2 AT grenades will always cause engine damage to medium tank.

On the other hand 2 faust with 140 far penetration have a 0.24% probability to bounce and not cause engine damage.

Allied snare are different not weaker.

Imo the penetration and deflection mechanism is fine for snares.

Right now the AT-grenades are better against high armor targets, and the fausts are better against medium targets. It has literally never been an issue in 8 years but is being brought up with this snare bug where they don't kill 0 health units. I don't see a significant enough reason to standardize these snares.

Of course, this assumes the 0 health tanks is fixed and the deflection damage not killing tanks is also fixed.

The Gren faust is "worse" against high armour targets than AT grenade snares. The Volk faust has 80 deflection damage, and is therefore the same as allied snares... just while retaining almost all of the Gren Faust's higher penetration.

Lower deflection damage is not an "axis" trait, it's literally just a Gren/Ostruppen trait, and with no discernable justification.

I'm not seeing any reason not to just standardise them, it makes things more consistent, and the current situation doesn't add any gameplay or tactical depth at all.

Can you articulate why Grenadiers being "better" against medium tanks than other squads, and "worse" against Heavy Tanks is an important part of design?

With 160 total damage 2 AT grenades will always cause engine damage to medium tank.

On the other hand 2 faust with 140 far penetration have a 0.24% probability to bounce and not cause engine damage.

Allied snare are different not weaker.

Allied snares are indeed weaker. Medium tanks are not the only tanks on the field. Both the Brummbar and Jagdpanzer can take between two and three snares before they receive engine damage, dependent on the luck of the draw.

Allied snares have the dubiously intentional benefit of apparently retaining lockon around sight blockers. This isnt communicated in the game at all, has absolutely no logical basis, and is more likely a bug or oversight than an actually intentional trait.

Even if we're just talking about mediums, allied snares take, on average, around one more application to have killed a 640HP axis tank, than a Gren faust takes to kill an allied tank. Why?

Also: 140 far penetration on the Grenadier Faust is at 30 range. The faust's actual maximum cast range is 18 (or 19.26~, with the range bulletin).