For those that have played panzer general or one of its many clones, there is a function there, that when a unit is understrength, you can choose to get fresh replacements or elite replacements.
Elite replacements cost more, but you keep the experience the unit has.
Fresh replacements cost less, but you lose some of the experience the unit has beforehand.
say if there was a gren squad, 1 model left, you could choose between osttruppen reinforcement (16mp)or regular gren reinforcement (30mp). making the gren reinforce with OSSTR, is cheaper, but loses combat effectiveness, with the gren now being 25% grenadier and 75% OSSTR, and an experience penalty would be applied, either making it harder/longer to gain xp, or losing some of its current xp, ''demoting'' the unit.
but the models would look the same, and the grenadier would still have its snare,grenade and mg42 lmg upgrade option.
same can be applied to pioneers and PzGrens, with the models lost can be chosen to replace with OSSTR with K98's.
Not sure if teamweapons should be replaced in a similar fashion
An idea regarding OST relief infantry rework
9 Feb 2021, 15:15 PM
#1
Posts: 219
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
9 Feb 2021, 15:23 PM
#2
Posts: 5279
That's a pretty neat and out of the box suggestion. Very cool
#stalinwept
9 Feb 2021, 15:30 PM
#3
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Nice idea, yes, but overall I assume this is not attractive at all, implementation issues aside.
Osttruppen models are balanced around the 6 men squad and mostly the health that they provide. I wouldn't buy a three men squad of those + 1 model grenadier. Veterancy would also be heavily mixed up. And especially on PGrens and other elite units this option is not attractive at all, since you'd get so much less for the population it takes. Also it might be hard to remember/see which and how many of those models are in a given squad, so neither you nor your opponent would really know how effective this squad would be.
Osttruppen models are balanced around the 6 men squad and mostly the health that they provide. I wouldn't buy a three men squad of those + 1 model grenadier. Veterancy would also be heavily mixed up. And especially on PGrens and other elite units this option is not attractive at all, since you'd get so much less for the population it takes. Also it might be hard to remember/see which and how many of those models are in a given squad, so neither you nor your opponent would really know how effective this squad would be.
9 Feb 2021, 20:14 PM
#4
Posts: 5279
Nice idea, yes, but overall I assume this is not attractive at all, implementation issues aside.
Osttruppen models are balanced around the 6 men squad and mostly the health that they provide. I wouldn't buy a three men squad of those + 1 model grenadier. Veterancy would also be heavily mixed up. And especially on PGrens and other elite units this option is not attractive at all, since you'd get so much less for the population it takes. Also it might be hard to remember/see which and how many of those models are in a given squad, so neither you nor your opponent would really know how effective this squad would be.
My interpretation of this would be like merge without merge. Basicly, yes you are getting a squishier model, but you sre saving on reinforcement cost and time. Might be useful from a halftrack on the front where you don't want to retreat.
Perhaps being limited to weapon teams would be best, but I think the idea is quite fresh and manages to give it some niche outside of "get vet 0 ostroppen way to late in the game"
#stalinwept
10 Feb 2021, 02:38 AM
#5
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Honestly, I would have suggest stop beating the dead horse at this point.
vCoH had medics mechanic aswell as abilities to replace losses, because you was expected lose models\units.
CoH2 became a game, where even loosing 1 squad might be very punishing, especially if its vetted.
Both relief and rapid consicription are abilities that arent fit for CoH2. Anything based on loosing something in Coh2 by default wont fit its gameplay.
I would have been x100 times better to just replace this abilities, considering we have only 2 commanders for each side having them.
Lightning War Doctrine - can easily have Breakthrough from encirclement doctrine
Festung Support Doctrine - Defensive Fortifications from Defensive
For soviets its harder, both Conscripts Support Tactics and Soviet Reserve Army have not only rapid but also rapair kits. Which makes both of them even less usefull.
vCoH had medics mechanic aswell as abilities to replace losses, because you was expected lose models\units.
CoH2 became a game, where even loosing 1 squad might be very punishing, especially if its vetted.
Both relief and rapid consicription are abilities that arent fit for CoH2. Anything based on loosing something in Coh2 by default wont fit its gameplay.
I would have been x100 times better to just replace this abilities, considering we have only 2 commanders for each side having them.
Lightning War Doctrine - can easily have Breakthrough from encirclement doctrine
Festung Support Doctrine - Defensive Fortifications from Defensive
For soviets its harder, both Conscripts Support Tactics and Soviet Reserve Army have not only rapid but also rapair kits. Which makes both of them even less usefull.
10 Feb 2021, 04:33 AM
#6
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
[...]
Both relief and rapid consicription are abilities that arent fit for CoH2. Anything based on loosing something in Coh2 by default wont fit its gameplay.
[...]
i honestly don't get why people keep bringing this as an argument ad nauseum when it is so obviously flawed. you simply can't play the infantry game without accumulating a substantial amount of model drops - and i mean individual models, not squads - throughout a match or you're doing something wrong. manpower bleed through casualties is real, and both relief inf and rapid conscription are designed to attenuate this to some extent. now it can of course be argued if an unvetted free squad at the 20 min mark is of much use, or if a system like recoup losses (or any other variations of it that have been proposed already) might offer a bit more flexibility, but in essence these ability do have a place in the game. the real issue that plagues both RI and RC imho is that they come too late and may need some adjustment of cost/duration.
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10 Feb 2021, 05:53 AM
#7
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
i honestly don't get why people keep bringing this as an argument ad nauseum when it is so obviously flawed. you simply can't play the infantry game without accumulating a substantial amount of model drops - and i mean individual models, not squads - throughout a match or you're doing something wrong. manpower bleed through casualties is real, and both relief inf and rapid conscription are designed to attenuate this to some extent. now it can of course be argued if an unvetted free squad at the 20 min mark is of much use, or if a system like recoup losses (or any other variations of it that have been proposed already) might offer a bit more flexibility, but in essence these ability do have a place in the game. the real issue that plagues both RI and RC imho is that they come too late and may need some adjustment of cost/duration.
*Applause*
They can still be rewarding now as long as you time it right before a major engagement that would be happening anyway. Maybe they need to be longer but I think they are already pretty long
The skewed commander balance hurts them a bit as well i think, just by the cmdrs they are on
If they need something a little more to make the ability more attractive, maybe the "relief squads" could come with a 1-time supply drop ability they can call in on a muni or fuel point. Gives like 25mu or 10 fu. Kinda fits the theme while giving something more
10 Feb 2021, 06:38 AM
#8
Posts: 498
This ability is just full of contradictions.
First of all it costs a massive amount of munitions and many times you would be better off using the respective commanders' sector artillery or stuka loiter.
But let's assume you use it before a big engagement (most likely towards late game). You get your ostruppen squads but you also manage to retereat all your squads with a few models left.
Great, now you are left with a bunch of one of the weakest infantry units, they have no veterancy and they need to be upgraded with lmgs (further increasing muni cost). But most importantly they take up pop cap so in the end you have even less manpower to reinforce your retreated squads that would be more effective on the frontline than those fresh ostruppens.
So overall you paid tons of muni and manpower and the result may put you in a very disadvantageous positions, while for example using smoke bombs and sector artillery could have saved your troops and win that engagement.
There was a proposal about relief infantry returning some manpower for each model lost, that would make far more sense imo.
First of all it costs a massive amount of munitions and many times you would be better off using the respective commanders' sector artillery or stuka loiter.
But let's assume you use it before a big engagement (most likely towards late game). You get your ostruppen squads but you also manage to retereat all your squads with a few models left.
Great, now you are left with a bunch of one of the weakest infantry units, they have no veterancy and they need to be upgraded with lmgs (further increasing muni cost). But most importantly they take up pop cap so in the end you have even less manpower to reinforce your retreated squads that would be more effective on the frontline than those fresh ostruppens.
So overall you paid tons of muni and manpower and the result may put you in a very disadvantageous positions, while for example using smoke bombs and sector artillery could have saved your troops and win that engagement.
There was a proposal about relief infantry returning some manpower for each model lost, that would make far more sense imo.
10 Feb 2021, 10:59 AM
#9
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
My interpretation of this would be like merge without merge. Basicly, yes you are getting a squishier model, but you sre saving on reinforcement cost and time. Might be useful from a halftrack on the front where you don't want to retreat.
Perhaps being limited to weapon teams would be best, but I think the idea is quite fresh and manages to give it some niche outside of "get vet 0 ostroppen way to late in the game"
I understood it the same way. But as I said, you are just gimping your own squad. Merge on elite units is very unpopular, but if you do so it provides the huge advantage of getting a better weapon or keeping a better squad on the field. The suggestion of OP does neither of this. Your choice is to gimp your squad by reinforcement, most of the benefits of merge are lost.
Honestly, I would have suggest stop beating the dead horse at this point.
vCoH had medics mechanic aswell as abilities to replace losses, because you was expected lose models\units.
CoH2 became a game, where even loosing 1 squad might be very punishing, especially if its vetted.
Both relief and rapid consicription are abilities that arent fit for CoH2. Anything based on loosing something in Coh2 by default wont fit its gameplay.
I would have been x100 times better to just replace this abilities, considering we have only 2 commanders for each side having them.
Lightning War Doctrine - can easily have Breakthrough from encirclement doctrine
Festung Support Doctrine - Defensive Fortifications from Defensive
For soviets its harder, both Conscripts Support Tactics and Soviet Reserve Army have not only rapid but also rapair kits. Which makes both of them even less usefull.
I think a simple MP cost reduction mechanic is the easier way to go. But I agree that this ability does not fit into the current game's design where fast wipes have been toned down for years now.
This ability is just full of contradictions.
First of all it costs a massive amount of munitions and many times you would be better off using the respective commanders' sector artillery or stuka loiter.
But let's assume you use it before a big engagement (most likely towards late game). You get your ostruppen squads but you also manage to retereat all your squads with a few models left.
Great, now you are left with a bunch of one of the weakest infantry units, they have no veterancy and they need to be upgraded with lmgs (further increasing muni cost). But most importantly they take up pop cap so in the end you have even less manpower to reinforce your retreated squads that would be more effective on the frontline than those fresh ostruppens.
So overall you paid tons of muni and manpower and the result may put you in a very disadvantageous positions, while for example using smoke bombs and sector artillery could have saved your troops and win that engagement.
There was a proposal about relief infantry returning some manpower for each model lost, that would make far more sense imo.
This. And what MMX posted.
I am also all in for reducing MP reinforcement cost or returning MP in some way (although I think this might be bugged).
Unvetted squad issues aside, no one really wants yet another two squads in the late game if your infantry build is already finished. The only way it is useful is if you know that you lose some squads that need replacement, but you don't know this before the engagement. You know it only when it is almost over, and by this time there are not enough models left to drop to trigger a replacement squad. So your only chance to make this useful is to spend 120 MP in advance in anticipation that you might lose 1-2 squads. If you don't lose 1-2 squads, you might still lose enough models to get new Osttruppen/Con squads. So you get punished for keeping your squads alive.
10 Feb 2021, 15:20 PM
#10
Posts: 5279
I understood it the same way. But as I said, you are just gimping your own squad. Merge on elite units is very unpopular, but if you do so it provides the huge advantage of getting a better weapon or keeping a better squad on the field. The suggestion of OP does neither of this. Your choice is to gimp your squad by reinforcement, most of the benefits of merge are lost.
The benifit in this case would be rapid reinforcement and manpower saved. It wouldn't always be applicable but there would be scenarios where having squads on the field with full models would be better than not. Grens are 30mp a head and most of their dps comes from the lmg42 so what models are standing around firing their rifles don't matter so much, especially behind cover. Combined with a halftrack or command bunker you could have a cost effective line holder for a Time
I like it because it has clear drawbacks-outside the defensive scenario mentioned, your squad is weakened. Assuming you can chose between the models you want to reinforce from it could have some use for sure.
While you are missing the imidiate reinforcement of merge you are saving like half the mp and time in reinforcement for grens alone. If allowed on something like pgrens you could end up with a nasty halftrack pshrek combo. Weaker but with its boons as well.
I like the idea because it's a choice based ability with a dynamic
#stalinwept
10 Feb 2021, 15:33 PM
#11
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
i honestly don't get why people keep bringing this as an argument ad nauseum when it is so obviously flawed.
How it is flawed really? Consider amout of muni you are paying for both abilities, then consider amout of models you need to lose to get either new osttroopen or cons squad.
Lets not take into consideration 3v3 and 4v4 gamemodes, where you can easily have your small part of the map and all your units will be concentrated in this part of the map.
Playing as Ostheer you generally want to consider retreating your squads (based on situation) when they have droped to 2 models, if the engagement is not 100% winable. Same with soviets, you generally want to retreat with 2-3 models left.
Retreating with 1 model as ost or 1\2 models as soviets can be considered risky, especially if its not an early game engagements.
In other words, you are paying crap load of muni, and effectively you HAVE to lose 50% of multiple squad models in order to get un-vetted inf. Otherwise this ability would be just a muni waste.
Both abilities were designed with fast wipes in mind, because they were much MUCH more common back in the day. You could have expect to get wipes attaking\defending simply due to how damage worked.
After all the changes both abilities became a shenanigans schemes, where you kinda have to blob a bit, also lose models of multiple squads (ideally 1 model from each), also retreat (because they are vetted and losing them is not an option) and after that you might have 1 or 2 useless un-vetted squads, which will take a pop-cap aswell as lower your MP income and you will still pay for reinforcement of your main squads.
How is this design is not flawed.
10 Feb 2021, 15:45 PM
#12
Posts: 1594
The benifit in this case would be rapid reinforcement and manpower saved. It wouldn't always be applicable but there would be scenarios where having squads on the field with full models would be better than not. Grens are 30mp a head and most of their dps comes from the lmg42 so what models are standing around firing their rifles don't matter so much, especially behind cover. Combined with a halftrack or command bunker you could have a cost effective line holder for a Time
I like it because it has clear drawbacks-outside the defensive scenario mentioned, your squad is weakened. Assuming you can chose between the models you want to reinforce from it could have some use for sure.
While you are missing the imidiate reinforcement of merge you are saving like half the mp and time in reinforcement for grens alone. If allowed on something like pgrens you could end up with a nasty halftrack pshrek combo. Weaker but with its boons as well.
I like the idea because it's a choice based ability with a dynamic
The issue is that, although the other three Grenadier models don't contribute as much damage as the LMG gunner, you will be losing those models at a much faster rate. A four-man squad with poor survivability due to being reinforced with Ostruppen models is not survivable enough to make best use of its LMG's damage, even with the Grenadier RA and Damage reduction bonuses. You will be forced to retreat your Grenadiers much sooner, due to more rapid model losses, which will translate into inferior DPS overall... which is compounded by having to retreat even SOONER than that, as you will have less effective HP on retreat than is usual, meaning you cannot safely retreat at the same approximate HP as you usually would.
Command bunkers aren't often used by Ostheer, incidentally (Though this might change a little with the coming patch that makes Command and Healing bunker upgrades non-exclusive), and Halftracks usually have a very short window in which they reinforce, as most Ostheer players will be upgrading them immediately to FHTs due to Ostheer's strong desire for a shock-light-vehicle.
As mentioned before, the main benefit of Merge is not necessarily the lower reinforcement cost gained by replacing models with Conscripts, but instead the opportunity cost of being able to "instantly" reinforce in the field, effectively sacrificing a weaker squad's presence on the battlefield (The Conscripts) for allowing either a more immediately utilitarian unit (Team weapon), or a more deadly one (Guards, Penals) to stay on the field for much longer... or for consolidating models from multiple injured conscript squads into a smaller number of intact squads, reducing the number of squads that need to leave the field at once. The suggestion you're making really doesn't do any of these things.
10 Feb 2021, 16:50 PM
#13
Posts: 219
The idea was based on SOV merge and 2 options to reinforce your already existing understrenght unit.
say you have a pzgren with 2 models left(with stg44's), you choose to reinforce with OSTTR, 16mp vs 34mp choice, those 2 new OSSTR to the PzGren squad, come with k98's, But the core function of the unit still remains, it can upgrade to double schrecks, and throw bundled nade, but still weaker than a full pzgren squad.
same with pioneers, all OSSTR come with k98's instead of mp40's, but can still repair/build at normal speed, can still upgrade to flamer/minesweeper. but have the OSSTR weakness added as well.
I think it might be a suitable idea, being true to the idea of relief infantry, but a complicated one to implement.
after all, it would be your choice to reinforce the regular way, or the cheap way.
main aim is if you have suffered a good beating infantry wise, and all is retreated to base, this might help you to get back on your feet, but at a cost combat effectivness.
EDIT: This idea of relief infantry ability, would now be passive, and having no muni cost, and be locked behind command point 1-2
say you have a pzgren with 2 models left(with stg44's), you choose to reinforce with OSTTR, 16mp vs 34mp choice, those 2 new OSSTR to the PzGren squad, come with k98's, But the core function of the unit still remains, it can upgrade to double schrecks, and throw bundled nade, but still weaker than a full pzgren squad.
same with pioneers, all OSSTR come with k98's instead of mp40's, but can still repair/build at normal speed, can still upgrade to flamer/minesweeper. but have the OSSTR weakness added as well.
I think it might be a suitable idea, being true to the idea of relief infantry, but a complicated one to implement.
after all, it would be your choice to reinforce the regular way, or the cheap way.
main aim is if you have suffered a good beating infantry wise, and all is retreated to base, this might help you to get back on your feet, but at a cost combat effectivness.
EDIT: This idea of relief infantry ability, would now be passive, and having no muni cost, and be locked behind command point 1-2
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
10 Feb 2021, 18:05 PM
#14
Posts: 208
How it is flawed really? Consider amout of muni you are paying for both abilities, then consider amout of models you need to lose to get either new osttroopen or cons squad.
I actually agree with MMX - it's not about losing full squads, it's about losing infantry models, which you will be losing over the course of the game anyway. The trick is to timing ability activation in such way that you get the most of it, so standard risk-reward design.
However, I do agree that either the required losses or the cost are not in right place right now. Additionally, the fact that you need to reach a specific number of losses to get a benefit is problematic. That's one of the reasons why I came up and implemented a rework for Rapid Conscription, which stores the number of lost models between activations.
Relief Infantry has it harder though, as unlike Conscripts, Ostruppen can't merge, so they can't even be "sacrificed" as reinforcements for veteran squads. All in all, making Relief Infantry a clone of fixed Recoup Losses (so it also triggers when models become crawling casualties) is likely going to be the course of action next patch.
10 Feb 2021, 20:35 PM
#15
Posts: 5279
The issue is that, although the other three Grenadier models don't contribute as much damage as the LMG gunner, you will be losing those models at a much faster rate. A four-man squad with poor survivability due to being reinforced with Ostruppen models is not survivable enough to make best use of its LMG's damage, even with the Grenadier RA and Damage reduction bonuses. You will be forced to retreat your Grenadiers much sooner, due to more rapid model losses, which will translate into inferior DPS overall... which is compounded by having to retreat even SOONER than that, as you will have less effective HP on retreat than is usual, meaning you cannot safely retreat at the same approximate HP as you usually would.
im aware of these drawbacks, which is why is specified it would have use on the defensive in conjunction with forward reinforcement. these would offset the major drawbacks in this scenario. its better to have a squishier squad shooting at the enemy than a more durable one running to base. part of the reason i like the idea is that it isnt perfect for every scenario which means it wont dominate the meta by being a flat upgrade. it would have its uses, especially in team game, but not be dominating.
Command bunkers aren't often used by Ostheer, incidentally (Though this might change a little with the coming patch that makes Command and Healing bunker upgrades non-exclusive), and Halftracks usually have a very short window in which they reinforce, as most Ostheer players will be upgrading them immediately to FHTs due to Ostheer's strong desire for a shock-light-vehicle.
perhaps a reason to leverage the utility of forward reinforcement may change that. just because people dont use things a certain way in the current meta doesn't mean they wont if the ideal scenario presents itself. the flexibility and ability to keep higher dps units on the field, even at a cost, could be
quite valuable. i recall ostroppen being backed by half track in the past to be very much a thing, and now that they can heal as well it would lend itself even more to helping larger models sized infantry
As mentioned before, the main benefit of Merge is not necessarily the lower reinforcement cost gained by replacing models with Conscripts, but instead the opportunity cost of being able to "instantly" reinforce in the field, effectively sacrificing a weaker squad's presence on the battlefield (The Conscripts) for allowing either a more immediately utilitarian unit (Team weapon), or a more deadly one (Guards, Penals) to stay on the field for much longer... or for consolidating models from multiple injured conscript squads into a smaller number of intact squads, reducing the number of squads that need to leave the field at once. The suggestion you're making really doesn't do any of these things.
im aware of the benifits of merge, and that this isnt that. this would act as something similar though. ost models are not cheap, ostroppen models are. you would be saving more in manpower but losing out in staying power. im aware of this, the benifits would not be the same as merge but the outcome somehat similar and true to the theme of the ability- get bodies out as fast as you can to help hold the line. thats what would happen. its relief infantry. nobody would be under the assumption that they are getting the same models for half the price. you are paying less and getting less, but you are getting something. shitty men holding the line are better than nobody holding the line and the interior stats of the ostroppen models would ensure that this isnt simply "all your infantry reinforces at half or less their origional cost for no drawbacks whatsoever"
as long as the drawbacks are clearly stated (or as clearly as coh2 tooltips are allowed to be) it could work. if nobody used it it would be no worse off that the current iteration of the ability, if some people find value in having cheap reinforcements on some of the most expensive reinforcement costs around then we have something.
again, the beauty of it is that its not a universally good choice to reinforce your infantry with, its situational with advantages and disadvantages and that means it gives the player a choice.
#stalinwept
10 Feb 2021, 21:03 PM
#16
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
I actually agree with MMX - it's not about losing full squads, it's about losing infantry models, which you will be losing over the course of the game anyway. The trick is to timing ability activation in such way that you get the most of it, so standard risk-reward design.
Its not, but as I've pointed out, it was about loosing squads back in the day, with full wipes being more friquant. Thing is, you basically need to have huge inf consentrations, speaking of 3+ squads in one place taking sugnificant losses, in order to make this ability pay for itself. Spending all that muni to get 1 ost\const squad is not worth it, while in order to get 2 you need presice calculation and presice amount of squads in one place.
All of this makes both abilities in a global picture, simply not worth the all this efford. Risk is much highter then the reward. That was my point.
Additionally, the fact that you need to reach a specific number of losses to get a benefit is problematic. That's one of the reasons why I came up and implemented a rework for Rapid Conscription, which stores the number of lost models between activations.
This is sounds interesting. But again, lets say you are missing 1 model, so you would need 2 activations to get 1 squad, maybe 2 if you manage to pull it off this time or not. Still imo, this ability is a gamble at best.
10 Feb 2021, 21:20 PM
#17
Posts: 208
Its not, but as I've pointed out, it was about loosing squads back in the day, with full wipes being more friquant. Thing is, you basically need to have huge inf consentrations, speaking of 3+ squads in one place taking sugnificant losses, in order to make this ability pay for itself. Spending all that muni to get 1 ost\const squad is not worth it, while in order to get 2 you need presice calculation and presice amount of squads in one place.
All of this makes both abilities in a global picture, simply not worth the all this efford. Risk is much highter then the reward. That was my point.
This is sounds interesting. But again, lets say you are missing 1 model, so you would need 2 activations to get 1 squad, maybe 2 if you manage to pull it off this time or not. Still imo, this ability is a gamble at best.
That pretty much confirms what I mentioned before, at least in case of Rapid Conscription which grants a merge-able squad - the ability is too expensive or requires too many models for replacement squads. If it could store lost models between activations and could be activated more often at cheaper cost, it would certainly be more useful than it is now.
Relief Infantry - not so much.
EDIT: Here's my Rapid Conscription rework in case you haven't seen it. I think it will explain better what I have in mind.
11 Feb 2021, 05:00 AM
#18
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
How it is flawed really? Consider amout of muni you are paying for both abilities, then consider amout of models you need to lose to get either new osttroopen or cons squad.
[...]
i think you misunderstood what i was referring to (or maybe i misunderstood your post). i'm not saying these abilities are fine as is; in fact they're far from viable atm considering cost and timing, which is one of the main reasons neither RC nor RI see much use these days. what i intended to point out is that the main argument a lot of people seem to have against these abilities is that somehow you need to lose entire squads to get any use out of your munitions expenditure. this is just not the case since you can easily drop enough models during the 60 s time window the ability is active (which will usually be long enough to cover several engagements) to get at least one squad in return. i've been using RC in 1v1s quite frequently in the past and while getting a free squad may not always be possible, it happens more often than not if you time it right.
are these abilities too expensive? is the duration too short? are there better ways to provide a manpower equivalent than giving unvetted squads in exchange for munitions? these are all worthwhile questions to ask and there are countless suggestions of how to improve RC and RI (like the one by Olekman below, for example). but saying these abilities have no place in the game because losing stuff in coh2 is against its design philosophy is flat out wrong in my opinion.
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11 Feb 2021, 10:42 AM
#19
Posts: 163
I don't use any commander with this skills for so long idk if it works on at guns if it works, the only use imo is when you blob ur at guns and will lose it(ex. frag bomb from ostheer infantry)
11 Feb 2021, 11:51 AM
#20
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
The benifit in this case would be rapid reinforcement and manpower saved. It wouldn't always be applicable but there would be scenarios where having squads on the field with full models would be better than not. Grens are 30mp a head and most of their dps comes from the lmg42 so what models are standing around firing their rifles don't matter so much, especially behind cover. Combined with a halftrack or command bunker you could have a cost effective line holder for a Time
I like it because it has clear drawbacks-outside the defensive scenario mentioned, your squad is weakened. Assuming you can chose between the models you want to reinforce from it could have some use for sure.
While you are missing the imidiate reinforcement of merge you are saving like half the mp and time in reinforcement for grens alone. If allowed on something like pgrens you could end up with a nasty halftrack pshrek combo. Weaker but with its boons as well.
I like the idea because it's a choice based ability with a dynamic
You currently get a similar MP spread on merging Conscripts into Guards, yet few do it and pros even advise against it from what I see.
Yes, you'd save a bit of MP, on the other hand you lose quite a lot of resources if your squad cannot hold its position as strongly. Ostheer squads really count on every single model performing decently. Especially PGrens who suffer heavily if they lose models.
Obviously I don't know how it exactly would turn out, but judging by the usage of Conscript merge on elite squads, it will likely be a bigger ability rework that won't bring much at all, even if you might gain an additional 30ish MP on the short term.
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Ladders Top 10
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