Sturmtiger... why?

If you ask me just give it longer range and turn it into a proper SPG that needs to lockdown first in order to fire.

Which part of the B4's design makes you think it'd be a good idea to copy it onto a highly durable mobile chassis?

That's where you're wrong. Sturmtiger gets a very useful and deadly vet 1 ability that it can use besides its main armament / during down time, it gets 1280 hitpoints at vet 2 on top of similar/slightly worse armor (242 vs 290), it gets significantly more range at vet 4 and it is deadlier against tanks when you can manage to score direct hits (580 vs 440 damage). It also reaches most of its veteran bonuses faster at 1400/2800/5600/7400/8900 veterancy requirements compared to the AVRE's 2020/4040/8080.

It is more clumsy to use, that is for sure. And overal I would rate the AVRE slightly better because it is more versatile / easier to use. But the Sturmtiger definitely has its perks once you know when and how to use it and it can be really good when used properly.

Its indeed has nice and strong vet bonuses, but that wasnt my point. Point was that while AVRE almost comes as it is, strate of the bat, whith vet bonuses improving its perfomance, ST vet bonuses are mandatory for its normal perfomance. In other words, ST becomes actually usefull only when he reached a certain vet level. It still takes time to do so.

From my expirience of using it, I was able to reach hight vet with it, when I was killing or shooting tanks with it. It still takes painfully long to vet it up only by killing inf.

Its clunkyness of use is also one of the reasons I think its kinda suck. I wont deny, I still usually dont understand where I need to aim with it to actually deliver most of the damage and if shell will colide with this or that. Its like requare special learning curve and knowlage of what obsticals and map layout will block its shells.
Sure it payoffs knowing all of this, but ST gave me so much frustration and it failed me so many times, I cant force myself into deep learning of its timings and collision rules and exceptions in MP.

On the other hand I never expience this problems with AVRE and always can get it to vet 3 consistently, with ST its like a complete gamble most of the times.

Which part of the B4's design makes you think it'd be a good idea to copy it onto a highly durable mobile chassis?

Think he is suggesting KV-2 design and not B4...

The AVRE also gets the option of war speed, making it extremely agile and leaving less time to dodge the nuke. It can easily get 30-60 kills in a 1v1, while Sturmtiger would be lucky if it gets to shoot even once.

Was this once a good unit?

Yes.

It was omega cancerous when it was able to shoot outside its vision range, thru shotblockers and one-shot medium tanks.

Im glad its a meme unit, one shot units like the ST, AVRE and B4 should not exist in a game thats about unit preservation... thers just no way to balance them, they either work as intended and are therefore broken as fuck (like the AVRE) or not and end up as a meme.

Was this once a good unit?

Yup, and it also use to be stock which is hilarious. Relics original OKW design was horrifically dumb

Same here.
A friend of mine loves the unit and it is really tough to play against in 2v2. And frustrating.
Especially in longer games when,
it is joined by a King Tiger with armor piercing rounds.

With AP rounds you have an OP tank killer and with the Sturm a glorious wiping machine.

IMO King Tiger, Sturm AND AP rounds do go together too well. In team games that feels pretty OP.

The collision of the projectile with the terrain however - that is a silly mechanic that makes the unit frustrating to play.

My vote goes for: remove AP rounds from the commander and remove this collision mechanic

I'd rather they remove the Sturmtiger from Elite Armoured than remove the HEAT shells. HEAT and the 221/3 is what I pick Elite Armoured for, not the Meme Bass Cannon.

Yes.

It was omega cancerous when it was able to shoot outside its vision range, thru shotblockers and one-shot medium tanks.

Im glad its a meme unit, one shot units like the ST, AVRE and B4 should not exist in a game thats about unit preservation... thers just no way to balance them, they either work as intended and are therefore broken as fuck (like the AVRE) or not and end up as a meme.

Of the bunch I find the B4 the most aggravating. In teamgames you can't always know what's being targetted, and if he gets a lucky shot you lose a medium tank, which the Sturmtiger and AVRE can't do in a single shot.

I definitely agree that oneshot units like these are really bad for the game, though. I'm not really sure how they could be changed though. Perhaps reduced damage, increased AOE, and a large stun/suppression/pinning radius to turn them into a unit to support others in attacks, rather than ones that delete units all on their own?

Was this once a good unit? Short range, slow fire, and it glitches like nuts on the terrain. I can fire it on a standing unit of infantry and it'll manage to catch a bump in the ground and do zero damage to any units.

Does anyone use this tactically? Is the idea you would drive it up to a fortified position and fire it? It takes so damn long that you'll lose the tank to a single AT just trying to do that.

Usually in ambush (as hard to believe as that might be for a Tiger derivative!) and with a distraction so the target doesn't notice. Best used against weapon crews which can't just press T in fear and escape in time. Or yes UKF emplacements if they overinvest. Ie: Meme purposes in the latter case.

It'll tank a single AT gun fine, it's snare + med tank/TD that you have to watch out for.

Which part of the B4's design makes you think it'd be a good idea to copy it onto a highly durable mobile chassis?

If you are talking about it being OP let me ask you how many B4 do you actually see in play at any point unless it's for trolling even if it's a 4v4 and it's behind 4 layers of defenses and AA protection? It will get nuked at a certain point, just like every other stationary piece.

As for turning it into an SPG, it would be something entirely unique to the game and to the Axis that are currently lacking compared to the Allies which have the M7 Priest and the Sexton.

There are currently 2 knock-off AVREs for the Ost, those being the Stupa and StuG III E, I don't really think the OKW needs a 170 fuel and 560 manpower slow ass turd that takes it's sweet ass time to fire with it's low range and has a projectile that either blows up on a pebble or has a 50/50 chance of actually doing some damage to something and as you can see in this topic, not even a squad wipe for that cost is just worth it if you ask me and many other people.

It's the same as the B4 currently, just a meme unit you use for the shits and giggles, nothing more.

At least turning it into the Panzer Elite Hummel from CoH would give it some practical use with the same risk and reward mechanic to it.

Bump up the price, give it a longer range and a lock down before being able to fire with a minute cooldown or something so the person pays if they're not guarding or moving it around as they should if found by the enemy and properly attacked.

At the very least that would give it a reason for the cost, speed, manual reload and it being abandoned while the crew is reloading it if under heavy attack.

If the consensus is that units like AVRE are cancerous (I don't disagree), then rework both to be memes or utility based. It's just straight up unfair to have one side get the OP wipe machine and the other to get the bumbling meme for roughly the same cost. Pick one lane and stick to it no matter the faction.

I'd personally prefer both units (And all units) to be viable and generally utility based rather than any being strictly "meme units", but obviously that takes a lot more work.

I REALLY don't want to see the rest of Elite Armoured get a nerf if the Sturmtiger is buffed/changed though. It's one of my favourite OKW docs to use, particularly when the enemy appears to be going mass heavy tanks.

From my expirience of using it, I was able to reach hight vet with it, when I was killing or shooting tanks with it. It still takes painfully long to vet it up only by killing inf.

That applies to ALL high cost vehicles when shooting against infantry, specially ones which have any sort of AT. Vehicles which are purely AI, can be balanced by giving them low xp requirements but that can't be the case for those who have AT.

Not sure if there's a modifier available that let's units gain more xp when fighting a specific type of unit.

I'd personally prefer both units (And all units) to be viable and generally utility based rather than any being strictly "meme units", but obviously that takes a lot more work.

I REALLY don't want to see the rest of Elite Armoured get a nerf if the Sturmtiger is buffed/changed though. It's one of my favourite OKW docs to use, particularly when the enemy appears to be going mass heavy tanks.

It's a simple matter of design. Some units are only healthy to have them as meme units as long as their retain some part of it's original design (1 shot 1 kill or heavy cheese).

Demos, goliaths, B4, AVRE, ST, Radio silence/Spy network, Air supremacy, Artillery Cover, FHQ, Close the pocket, M8 Canister shell have always fall in this group.

That applies to ALL high cost vehicles when shooting against infantry, specially ones which have any sort of AT. Vehicles which are purely AI, can be balanced by giving them low xp requirements but that can't be the case for those who have AT.

Not sure if there's a modifier available that let's units gain more xp when fighting a specific type of unit.

Its not a point I was making. Lets take any heavy\med tank as an example. Does vet improves perfomance of the unit? It does. Does veterancy have to be obtained before unit can be more or less normally used? Most of the time it doesnt.

ST starts as an objectively weak unit, when compaired to his direct counterpart (being AVRE) or to pretty much any late game heavy call-in in terms of its raw perfomance and value.

In other words, lets say you get an Elephant\ISU or even AVRE. Does thouse units require vet to be used effectively and without pain in the dick? No. Veterancy provide utility and perfomance buffs on top of what they already offer to you. I'm not implying that vet 0 ST is un-usable, but as I said it requare deep game knowlage or luck to be used effectively.

ST case is different. It feels like it starts nerfed, then with vet it start getting its perfomance back. Pretty much like cons PPSH works, vet3 + reserves PPSH cons are great, without it ppsh pretty much gives them nothing that usefull.

Again I'm not implying that this approach to the unit design is bad, but at the same time its only good when its fair. Without AVRE in the game ST as it is would have been fine, but with AVRE and the fact that it feels and plays normally, being pretty much the same unit, makes ST design just unfair.

Its not a point I was making. Lets take any heavy\med tank as an example. Does vet improves perfomance of the unit? It does. Does veterancy have to be obtained before unit can be more or less normally used? Most of the time it doesnt.

ST starts as an objectively weak unit, when compaired to his direct counterpart (being AVRE) or to pretty much any late game heavy call-in in terms of its raw perfomance and value.

In other words, lets say you get an Elephant\ISU or even AVRE. Does thouse units require vet to be used effectively and without pain in the dick? No. Veterancy provide utility and perfomance buffs on top of what they already offer to you. I'm not implying that vet 0 ST is un-usable, but as I said it requare deep game knowlage or luck to be used effectively.

ST case is different. It feels like it starts nerfed, then with vet it start getting its perfomance back. Pretty much like cons PPSH works, vet3 + reserves PPSH cons are great, without it ppsh pretty much gives them nothing that usefull.

Again I'm not implying that this approach to the unit design is bad, but at the same time its only good when its fair. Without AVRE in the game ST as it is would have been fine, but with AVRE and the fact that it feels and plays normally, being pretty much the same unit, makes ST design just unfair.

Indeed but i think the problem is that the ST has a higher potential. Making it be overall closer in performance to the AVRE will probable lower down how good it can be with vet probable.

Also, since both units are unique to one commander, is worth considering the value of the commander as a whole rather than the units on themselves as well.


Overall, between the choice of nerfing the AVRE or buffing the ST, i'll rather buff the ST (removing abandon is a beginning) but in either case, i don't want either commander to ever be first pick meta material (at least in regards to thiese units, not the commander abilities)

It's a simple matter of design. Some units are only healthy to have them as meme units as long as their retain some part of it's original design (1 shot 1 kill or heavy cheese).

Demos, goliaths, B4, AVRE, ST, Radio silence/Spy network, Air supremacy, Artillery Cover, FHQ, Close the pocket, M8 Canister shell have always fall in this group.

I mean, sure, but there's no real need to have them retain such heavy cheese or oneshot ability. The Goliath, for example, could easily be rebalanced to be much cheaper/harder to detect, but act as a regular mine (Albeit one that's mobile) while still retaining it's flavour. "Instakills the enemy or does nothing" isnt a particularly good bit of flavour to maintain, at least in my opinion, especially when it holds an unit back from actually being usable in most games.

I mean, sure, but there's no real need to have them retain such heavy cheese or oneshot ability. The Goliath, for example, could easily be rebalanced to be much cheaper/harder to detect, but act as a regular mine (Albeit one that's mobile) while still retaining it's flavour. "Instakills the enemy or does nothing" isnt a particularly good bit of flavour to maintain, at least in my opinion, especially when it holds an unit back from actually being usable in most games.

Well, some people just want their cheese to be niche but remains smelly like Roquefort.

If you are talking about it being OP let me ask you how many B4 do you actually see in play at any point unless it's for trolling even if it's a 4v4 and it's behind 4 layers of defenses and AA protection? It will get nuked at a certain point, just like every other stationary piece.

B4 design is terrible, that is my point. All or nothing designs are never balanced because they are either OP or shit depending on whether they hit or miss and there's nothing in between. That is why it would be a bad idea to copy the B4's design and turn the ST into a mobile RNG catapult. At least the current version offers some counterplay because it needs to get up close.

B4 design is terrible, that is my point. All or nothing designs are never balanced because they are either OP or shit depending on whether they hit or miss and there's nothing in between. That is why it would be a bad idea to copy the B4's design and turn the ST into a mobile RNG catapult. At least the current version offers some counterplay because it needs to get up close.

Being in lockdown and having a long cooldown for close to a minute would not provide any counter play?

You could also nerf the armor or/and increase the price, many routes to go with it.

Question is what are you willing to do and experiment with, that's all.

AVRE is too good, not Sturmtiger too bad.

Off-topic:

Can we please hard-buff Goliath versus tanks?