Zis-3 as an AT gun

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 05:13 AMmrgame2

zis barrage nerf is definitely justified. If you are lucky, your weapon team barely retreats alive, if you are unlucky it gets insta wipe even when hitting retreat asap.

its rof was insanely high.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 06:57 AMMr Carmine

Its mostly the other way around with wiping in live. Nearly everything escapes but with variying amounts of hp left.

Increased cost or cooldow or both would be better imo. Soviets generaly dont dish out burst damage/hardhitting abilities only zis and t70 provide(d) that until the late game.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 08:40 AMVipper

That is not very accurate.
M3/flamer is one of the earliest units that has a pretty good chance of getting wipes
Penals have one of the best moving DPS for the time frame
Shock can get wipes also and again are one of strongest infatry of their time
Shock/guards/commissar/Partisans all come with grenades

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 10:15 AMMr Carmine

The last 4 are all doctrinal.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 10:15 AMMr Carmine

The m3 is the shortest lived ulv and requires ce's and dont burst down enemies with an ability. And penal moving dps is also not burst damage their satchal is easely avoided. They cant instantly turn a engagement into their favor like units with nades.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 10:15 AMMr Carmine

Thats why the su76 and zis barrage excist. Only throwing bodies at enemy positions wont get the job done.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 10:39 AMVipper

And available to majority of doctrines.

you still dont have acces to them at all times or together

M3 can still get wipes

You still need to chase and risk it with it dying in a sneeze, its not a abilty with high impact that does massive damage instantly and forces a retreat.


No, it simply faction design. Relic wanted some unit soviet to be "jack of all trades master to none".

They made some units jack off all trades because they intended sov to have a infirior stock rooster and be dependend on doctrines and beat axis before late game. That has mostly changed but soviets still dont have nades or early ai upgrade stock wich zis and su76 barrage and even t70 compensate for.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 06:57 AMMr Carmine

Its mostly the other way around with wiping in live. Nearly everything escapes but with variying amounts of hp left.

Increased cost or cooldow or both would be better imo. Soviets generaly dont dish out burst damage/hardhitting abilities only zis and t70 provide(d) that until the late game.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 11:02 AMmrgame2

but zis barrage does dish out burst damage, nearly unavoidable since it can range from 60.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 11:08 AMKatitof

Make up your mind, burst damage or 60 range?
Because both of these do not happen at the same time.
Also, it doesn't do any more burst then regular mortar barrage on preview mod, so you might want to update yourself.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 10:58 AMMr Carmine

you still dont have acces to them at all times or together

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 10:58 AMMr Carmine

You still need to chase and risk it with it dying in a sneeze, its not a abilty with high impact that does massive damage instantly and forces a retreat.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 10:58 AMMr Carmine

They made some units jack off all trades because they intended sov to have a infirior stock rooster and be dependend on doctrines and beat axis before late game. That has mostly changed but soviets still dont have nades or early ai upgrade stock wich zis and su76 barrage and even t70 compensate for.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 04:05 AMPip

https://coh2.serealia.ca/ is apparently a more reliable resource than Stein's sheets, and shows some rather interesting statistics. I'm not sure how or if they differ from Stein's though.

Show Spoiler

Show Spoiler

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 11:14 AMVipper

The majority of meta commander have access to grenades. There are few that they do not but saying Soviet do not have access to HE is simply inaccurate.

they dont have stock access meaning its more than possible to have no access. the stock roster needs to be accommodating for all commanders. commander with HE nades have that going for them, those without would otherwise be lacking.

If you watch von Ivan streams you will also see that he get wipes with satchels and even demo charges regularly.

if you watch a pro nearly anything can happen. id hardly call securing a wipe with a 3 second fuse satchel an alternative for a proper nade..

It does not matter if it is an ability or not, it still force retreats and get wipes and at a very early stage of the game before axis unit even get HE. OKW especially get access to HE very late.

it does matter if its an ability. especially an ability on a 320mp unit. it allows for retreats and wipes because nothing else in the t0/t2 match up will. you arnt going to fight off an mg with combat engies like you will sturms (which is adequate compensation for later stock elite infantry with nuclear nades- unlike the soviet, you will ALWAYS have access to these)

And since SU-75 and Zis had barrage from early stage of design there is no real correlation between grenades or AI upgrades and barrage, it is not a compensation it is part of the original desing.

a lot of things in the original design were works of compensation. soviet lacked reliable DPS but had generally better AI elsewhere. it may not be written down but its clearly part of the trade off

Implying that soviet can not get early wipes is simply inaccurate.

its significantly more difficult for soviet to get wipes with the sole exception of clown car cheese early on. no thrown explosives or weapon upgrades is made up elsehwere. the zis barrage getting slown down is a good change and all that is needed.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 12:16 PMthedarkarmadillo

the zis barrage getting slown down is a good change and all that is needed.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 11:14 AMVipper

The majority of meta commander have access to grenades. There are few that they do not but saying Soviet do not have access to HE is simply inaccurate.

If you watch von Ivan streams you will also see that he get wipes with satchels and even demo charges regularly.


It does not matter if it is an ability or not, it still force retreats and get wipes and at a very early stage of the game before axis unit even get HE. OKW especially get access to HE very late.



And since SU-75 and Zis had barrage from early stage of design there is no real correlation between grenades or AI upgrades and barrage, it is not a compensation it is part of the original desing.

Implying that soviet can not get early wipes is simply inaccurate.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 11:14 AMVipper

If you watch von Ivan streams you will also see that he get wipes with satchels and even demo charges regularly.

Jump back to quoted post14 Feb 2021, 15:05 PMMr Carmine

I never said soviets dont have nades or cant get early wipes. Its on different units and in different ways. And because of it its not so easy to pull off.
That vonivan can do it does not mean anybody can. Vonivan reguraly looses units on his wipe attempts. Also telling that its harder for soviets to do so, not that is unbalanced as is soviets do have other things that other factions lack.