Zis-3 as an AT gun

Yeah, best penetration as a munition sink is not really any kind of argument. For or against. It's an ability, not base stat. Coupled with the higher than average armour values on Axis armour, it's absolutely needed. Yeah, best arc and tracking, worst pen. End of story. Any sort of munitions sink to do it's job well is not an argument for "pro" of any unit.

I disagree. Abilities, are actually the basis of this thread. You can't ignore their existence for convenience. Despite the cheap cost, the 57mm is formidable if you have the munitions. Just like the zis, despite its lower stats than the pak is more versatile if you have the munitions. Abilities are as much the unit as its stats are.

Oorah is a pro for cons
Lack of a snare is a con for tommies
Volley fire is a.... Actually let's skip that one...
Flares are a pro for soviet mortars
Smoke is a pro for cromwell, Shermans, LVs and what not
HVAP is CERTAINLY a pro for jacksoms
Its also a pro for the 57mm

If the ZiS is underperforming then I guess the Rak sobs in the corner by that standard?

Don't think he really said it was UP. He specified its AT performance, which matters for the zis cause it's entire shtick is having the alternative attack

Rak is better than ZiS without barrage imo. I know they're not removing it but OP is talking about AT performance and barrage nerfs

I disagree. Abilities, are actually the basis of this thread. You can't ignore their existence for convenience. Despite the cheap cost, the 57mm is formidable if you have the munitions. Just like the zis, despite its lower stats than the pak is more versatile if you have the munitions. Abilities are as much the unit as its stats are.

Oorah is a pro for cons
Lack of a snare is a con for tommies
Volley fire is a.... Actually let's skip that one...
Flares are a pro for soviet mortars
Smoke is a pro for cromwell, Shermans, LVs and what not
HVAP is CERTAINLY a pro for jacksoms
Its also a pro for the 57mm

You mean to tell me that abilities that cost ammunition are a pro!?!?!? Oh no!!! I did not know that! I thought they put them there as a bait.

You mean to tell me that abilities that cost ammunition are a pro!?!?!? Oh no!!! I did not know that! I thought they put them there as a bait.

well, you did just post that muni abilities arnt a pro so....
but some ARE bait, volley fire for example, serves no purpose but to trick new players
at any rate, the 57mm also costs 15% less than "normal" at guns while sTILL having areas that its superior in. pen isnt that place UNLESS you pay muni, in which case its superior in EVERY category

well, you did just post that muni abilities arnt a pro so....
but some ARE bait, volley fire for example, serves no purpose but to trick new players
at any rate, the 57mm also costs 15% less than "normal" at guns while sTILL having areas that its superior in. pen isnt that place UNLESS you pay muni, in which case its superior in EVERY category

Read again. Muni ability like penetration bonus differs greatly from the AI barrage. Completely different things. Absolutely cannot be compared as both are faction gimmicks. That's why they are not a "pro" as in "M57 is better than ZiS". Not only that, but they are both on the same side.

Why M57 has larger arc and better tracking. 90% of the time, the first shot (the most important) will probably bounce (better arc, lower pen) as you will not just randomly click on the ability unless you expect the push. That's why you get the tracking and arc bonus, so that after the first shot you can invest muni to get the 2nd shot that will penetrate and possibly scare off dives on it (unless it's a brummbar or sturm or sth like that ofc). If it didn't have the larger arc and better tracking, most likely (unless super lane-y map) you would waste the muni as 75% of that time would be spent on repositioning the AT gun.

Why ZiS has barrage? Probably because it could in real life and the Relic idea (developers, their is the final word) was to give versatility and such gimmicks. In an average game you will spend more muni on the penetration boost than on the barrage, unless you exclusively buy the ZiS for the scatter-y barrage.
Volley fire and the Pershing piercing shot are probably the only bait abilities in USF roster. Both serve no purpose. At least volley fire can be effective if REs are given a BAR. Can't think of a scenario where the Pershing's ability shot can be useful (with it's low ROF and wind down)

EDIT: You don't have to bother replying as I'm done with this mind-numbing, BS thread.

-snip late-

Actually every single AT gun in the game has a 6 man crew, if the soviet man it. As such its faction trait and not a gun trait. You can't balance team weapons that can be crewed by anyone with the trait of that faction in mind because you end up with things like the maxim that is absolutely without value UNLESS you have a 6 man crew.

The zis pays for the barrage with inferior AT stats, which believe it or not, is why people buy AT guns.

Soviet weapons in general seem to pay for inferior stats with increased utilities (this helps offset the 6 man crew in a way but ensures that the weapon has value without the crew despite the lower stats, something the maxim notably misses as an example)

Also. The OTHER soviet AT gun also deals AI damage and has a 6 man crew following with the above reasoning but also disqualifying your complaint entirely.

Doesn't disqualify at all just shows soviet has a lot of firepower in every single AT-gun they can wield and we aren't talking about 45mm which is behind commander pick. 6 man crew being soviet trait is already known, doesn't still change that it's 6 man crew with the bonus survivability that brings (And I am not even talking about it at all). Back to barrage, they already have it on su-76 where it should be. Anyway people getting so damn touchy if brought small change and balance to the game. I never said to remove barrage from Zis and was only suggesting hide it behind veterancy so it's not a no-brainer build for soviet and gets no punishment for making it if Axis player goes heavily in infantry and not make a light vehicle play at all. If veterancy feels too high change then increase in munition cost is needed as at the moment it's pretty spammable ability for AT-gun doing things that normally isn't meant to do in this game for any faction, this is still my opinion. You want to barrage, build a mortar, build artillery, build even Su-76 where this ability should only be.

Anyone saying ZiS barrage is some kind of nuke and it needs changing clearly hasn't played the game recently. It's so inaccurate at best it will make a unit move but definitely won't wipe anything unless you're blobbing. Even then it's highly unlikely.

Anyone saying ZiS barrage is some kind of nuke and it needs changing clearly hasn't played the game recently. It's so inaccurate at best it will make a unit move but definitely won't wipe anything unless you're blobbing. Even then it's highly unlikely.

An unit, especially such an early one, doesn't need to be able to outright wipe units to be extremely effective.

An unit, especially such an early one, doesn't need to be able to outright wipe units to be extremely effective.

And it doesn't. It doesn't even kill really effectively unless you're standing in the aoe for it's whole duration. It's a worse mortar with a munitions cost.

Tbh its missleading presenting Zis barrage as "mortar" or something. It has multiple unique purpuses.

1) Destoying cover.
2) Forcing inf out of cover and forcing static weapons to relocate.
3) Provide shotguning protection when enemy is pushing.

And unlike grenades, which forces out of cover for a moment, zis is denying it for quite a while.

And actually this is quite a big deal. Personally, I find it frustrating at times, but nothing completly broken.

The only thing I would change - its minimal range, it shouldnt really be able to almost shoot under itself.

An unit, especially such an early one, doesn't need to be able to outright wipe units to be extremely effective.

And it doesn't.
For a very long time.

If its used from distance, you'd have to be extremely unlucky to lose something to it.
If its used from effective range, that means you SEE IT and can tell what's coming and react accordingly, if you don't, that's like standing on satchel charge and whining how OP it is if you don't move.

And it doesn't.
For a very long time.

If its used from distance, you'd have to be extremely unlucky to lose something to it.
If its used from effective range, that means you SEE IT and can tell what's coming and react accordingly, if you don't, that's like standing on satchel charge and whining how OP it is if you don't move.

The point he's trying to make is that the purpose of Zis Barrage isn't to directly kill things. Zis barrage displaces team weapons and entrenched infantry so that you don't need to spend your own health or manpower in bleed to do it with your infantry, or your tank health to do it. It provides constant small resource benefits with every use. It also comes in an At Gun that you're going to need to build anyway to survive the late game (Assuming Cons). Also micro tax is a thing. If you're busy trying to keep track of the whole map you have to always keep an eye out on where the Zis Barrage is going to come in because if you do miss it, you are probably going to lose your squad if you're hit while not in green cover with 3 shells.

Not saying it's OP, but I understand why it's considered so strong.

I'm not sure if the Zis needs to be nerfed further, but even with the existing nerfs the zis offers incredible utility.

The infantry tracking ability is of limited use but the barrage let's you displace weapon teams without needing to pay the cost of getting indirect fire units. Sure it won't wipe an mg team, but a mortar won't do that either with a single barrage if your opponent is paying the slightest attention.

Additionally the zis is even superior to mortars at clearing structures given the damage, rate of fire and elliptical dispersion of individual shots.

I have trouble recognizing a 6 man crew as being beneficial, other than anecdotally. Axis infantry drop models the fastest in the game and the anti tank gun crew don't put up a fight at all. Arty is still gonna 1 shot all 6 dudes like any other at gun.

Besides, the crew can't move faster than a snail (what is it like half speed?) so once the gunner or the loader dies, they just get stuck in a death loop and never fire again. Might be all at guns and support weapons doing this, but 6 men is just more experience, more popcap consumed, and more lols.

I have trouble recognizing a 6 man crew as being beneficial, other than anecdotally. Axis infantry drop models the fastest in the game and the anti tank gun crew don't put up a fight at all. Arty is still gonna 1 shot all 6 dudes like any other at gun.

Besides, the crew can't move faster than a snail (what is it like half speed?) so once the gunner or the loader dies, they just get stuck in a death loop and never fire again. Might be all at guns and support weapons doing this, but 6 men is just more experience, more popcap consumed, and more lols.

So first having 66% more hit points before being decrewed is a durability upgrade however you slice it. The gunner and loader are not always the ones targeted first by small arms and that means more time for you to back up into safer territory and/or bring reinforcements up and/or get your machine gun facing the correct direction to cover your AT gun.

4 men firing back is also an advantage when you crew it with soviet infantry. With 4 conscripts, penals or combat engineers able to fire back, the zis can contribute a not insubstantial amount of supporting firepower to a given engagement.

Next while lmg obers have one of the highest dps at long range in the game(if not the highest), they do no represent the majority of axis squads. If you compare allied squads to their rough axis counterparts you should notice that the dps really doesn't favor axis overall.

Arty doesn't always one shot weapons teams unless you are talking a about stupa dive bombs or railway artillery. A single hit or two from a mortar is not enough to kill a full hp zis crew unless they are standing on top of each other.

The zis does not actually take up more popcap than other at guns. It takes up 7 just like any other. Similarly the raketenwerfer also takes up 7 despite having 5 crew.



I can tell you right now that as soviets, my stolen PAK 40s are a lot easier to keep alive then when I use them as ostheer because of aforementioned reasons.


Some situations you just are going to inevitably lose your weapon teams but a good player minimizes those and in all other circumstances the extra crew is absolutely an advantage.

Zis is not a problem. All AT guns are good ballanced, with unique abillities.

The Zis barrage is problematic in competetive games and a nerf desperatly needed. It is one of the key pieces of the insane soviet late game and is usually the edge one needs to get ahead.

A slight anti tank performance buff is not necessary in my opinion but i would not veto it if this is what it takes to nerf the barrage.

Yall acting like the zis barrage isn't along side conscripts whom lack a proper nade and lack centralized DPS. Their whole shtick is that everything that isn't a dedicated specialist is flexible so that a host or meh performing units can still tackle any task. A worse pak would be just shit from an interest and balance perspective

The Zis barrage is problematic in competetive games and a nerf desperatly needed. It is one of the key pieces of the insane soviet late game and is usually the edge one needs to get ahead.

A slight anti tank performance buff is not necessary in my opinion but i would not veto it if this is what it takes to nerf the barrage.

Do you still feel this applies for the balance patch Zis Barrage? It's slowed down significantly per shell compared to live.