Zis-3 as an AT gun

Don't give me wrong; I do know that Zis-3 is a good towed gun in the game. But its AT performance is quite shabby. Compare to the other 320 MP counterparts, according to data from the modding tool, it has the lowest reload rate, lowest pen, lowest horizontal and vertical tracing speed (also highest wind-up and down, but I don't quite understand how it works. ) It does have six members crew, but it has to compensate with the fact that the soviet do not have any non- doc forward healing(not reinforce) option.

So, since Zis barrage is receiving a nerf next patch. It would be nice to see some alters to its AT performance.

Don't give me wrong; I do know that Zis-3 is a good towed gun in the game. But its AT performance is quite shabby. Compare to its 320 MP counterpart, according to data from the modding tool, it has the lowest reload rate, lowest pen, lowest horizontal and vertical tracing speed (also highest wind-up and down, but I don't quite understand how it works. ) It does have six members crew, but it has to compensate with the fact that the soviet do not have any non- doc forward healing(not reinforce) option.

So, since Zis barrage is receiving a nerf next patch. It would be nice to see some alters to its AT performance.

The ZIS has perfectly adequate AT performance considering it's massive utility. ZIS barrage is getting a nerf, though it's not entering the realm of "Underpowered" at all. I don't think it really needs a buff to AT to "compensate".

The 6man crews really are a great boon, too, particularly against things such as Tank cannons, indirect fire, and other explosives.

even discounting the barrage, given the 6 man crew the AT performance is more than in line with its cost. it isnt THAT much lower in terms of output than its contemporaries

even discounting the barrage, given the 6 man crew the AT performance is more than in line with its cost. it isnt THAT much lower in terms of output than its contemporaries

Well, it is weaker than it appears at first glance, if you're comparing it to the PAK, for example, given that Allies generally face higher armour values than Axis... but I still think it's perfectly fine where it is.

zis-3
vet1 gives it maphack, barrage can't be nerfed enough, 6 man crew takes years to decrew with small arms = underperforming

pak
dies from first barrage shot, vet1 ability can't be first shoot so target always escape = nice at gun

If the ZiS is underperforming then I guess the Rak sobs in the corner by that standard?

ZIS spam is curently the 1v1 meta, i think its in an acceptable place. Lower scatter on the barrage post AoE nerf would be nice to ensure the targeted MG actually moves.

Of all things, Zis barrage needs a nerf? What a rather strange decision

zis-3
vet1 gives it maphack, barrage can't be nerfed enough, 6 man crew takes years to decrew with small arms = underperforming

pak
dies from first barrage shot, vet1 ability can't be first shoot so target always escape = nice at gun

That might have something to do with the ability to actually fire a shot, hit the vehicle, and penetrate it

Show Spoiler

ZIS spam is curently the 1v1 meta, i think its in an acceptable place. Lower scatter on the barrage post AoE nerf would be nice to ensure the targeted MG actually moves.

2 is not a spam, its standard for all factions.

Don't give me wrong; I do know that Zis-3 is a good towed gun in the game. But its AT performance is quite shabby. Compare to the other 320 MP counterparts, according to data from the modding tool, it has the lowest reload rate, lowest pen, lowest horizontal and vertical tracing speed (also highest wind-up and down, but I don't quite understand how it works. ) It does have six members crew, but it has to compensate with the fact that the soviet do not have any non- doc forward healing(not reinforce) option.

So, since Zis barrage is receiving a nerf next patch. It would be nice to see some alters to its AT performance.

For quick reference:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H5z6szCfhmAAnDprmgwLzc-viZg4HPhKZshNLErvnck/edit#gid=1638665511
https://i.serealia.ca/files/coh2dps.html#76

Pen

Pak40: 210/200/190
Zis: 200/190/180
57mm: 150/140/130
57mm HVAP: 225/210195
Rak: 200/190/180
Pounder: 210/200/190


RoF = Reload + Wind up + Wind down + Ready aim + Fire aim

Winds are delays that are generally tied to animation sequences. If i get it right, wind up plus aim times are required before firing while wind down is performed after shooting.

So, let's say time to shoot.

TTS

Pak40: 0.57
Zis: 0.445
57mm: 0.56
Rak: 0.445
Pound: 0.57

ROF:

Pak40: 4.87
Zis: 5.875
57mm: 4.31
Rak: 4.995
Pound: 4.87

Tracking
Rotation speed/Arc

Pak: 14/30°
Zis: 12/30
57mm: 18/40
Rak: 12/35
Pound: 12/30

2 is not a spam, its standard for all factions.

Many of the games I watched had 3 ZIS guns, which isnt much more but is above the average 2.

That might have something to do with the ability to actually fire a shot, hit the vehicle, and penetrate it

Show Spoiler

The only one of those the ZiS has any particular trouble with (Relative to other AT guns) is penetration. According to the stats Elchino just posted the ZiS appears to be above average in all statistics but rotation rate and pen... and neither of those are even hugely worse than

As far as accuracy is concerned: I'm reasonably certain it's identical to every other PanzerAbwehrKanone other than the 57mm, which according to other stats I've read is slightly worse than the others.

Many of the games I watched had 3 ZIS guns, which isnt much more but is above the average 2.

What mode?

3 ZiS sounds fairly reasonable to build to me given it's strength and versatility. Kind of Muni heavy though.

Of all things, Zis barrage needs a nerf? What a rather strange decision

it kinda does, it's hard to react to and unless you can recognize quick enough that it's comming your units are toast. counter play is kinda important for balance.

it kinda does, it's hard to react to and unless you can recognize quick enough that it's comming your units are toast. counter play is kinda important for balance.

Doesn't it point upwards before barraging

It points upwards, has terrible scatter, and costs a bucket of munitions. I havent seen it properly kill an MG in a long while, and with this patch's nerf to OHK radius that will happen even less. Its basically a mortar barrage, just pack up and move.

I consistently see the ZIS barrage kill nothing.

For quick reference:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H5z6szCfhmAAnDprmgwLzc-viZg4HPhKZshNLErvnck/edit#gid=1638665511
https://i.serealia.ca/files/coh2dps.html#76

Pen

Pak40: 210/200/190
Zis: 200/190/180
57mm: 150/140/130
57mm HVAP: 225/210195
Rak: 200/190/180
Pounder: 210/200/190


RoF = Reload + Wind up + Wind down + Ready aim + Fire aim

Winds are delays that are generally tied to animation sequences. If i get it right, wind up plus aim times are required before firing while wind down is performed after shooting.

So, let's say time to shoot.

TTS

Pak40: 0.57
Zis: 0.445
57mm: 0.56
Rak: 0.445
Pound: 0.57

ROF:

Pak40: 4.87
Zis: 5.875
57mm: 4.31
Rak: 4.995
Pound: 4.87

Tracking
Rotation speed/Arc

Pak: 14/30°
Zis: 12/30
57mm: 18/40
Rak: 12/35
Pound: 12/30

Again, I am only comparing the 320 mp ATs. You may include the others, but I personally do not prefer to do so since I don't think they are fair comparisons.
According to the modding tool:

Pen(the higher, the better):
Pak40: 210/200/190
Zis: 200/190/180
Pounder: 210/200/190

AOE pen(the higher, the better):
Pak40: 105/100/95
Zis: 100/95/90
Pounder: 105/100/95

Reload(the higher, the worse):
Pak40: 3.5~4.1
Zis: 4.425~4.425
Pounder: 3.5~4.1

horizontal and vertical tracing speed (the higher, the better):
Pak40: 14(horizontal);25(vertical )
Zis: 12(horizontal);12(vertical )
Pounder: 12(horizontal);25(vertical )

Wind up and down(If I got what you said, then the higher, the worse?)
Pak40: 0.5(down);0.25(up)
Zis: 1(down);0.125(up)
Pounder: 0.5(down);0.25(up)

Here are couple more differences, but I have no idea how they work:
Behavior -- reaction radius:
Pak40: 0.4
Zis: 0.5
Pounder: 0.4

Flinch radius:
Pak40: 0.5
Zis: 0
Pounder: 0.5

Moving end/move start time(I assume the higher, the worse):
Pak40: 0.75(end);0.6(start)
Zis: 1(end);1(start)
Pounder: 0.75(end);0.6(start)



Accuracy, Fire aim, and ready aim are the same for all of them.

Yep. The other 2 320 MP AT guns are crutches for their factions and as such are best in class. They also lack indirect, so OST still needs a mortar for that and UKF needs.... lets not go there.

The ZIS does an acceptable job up till Panthers and can do a great mortar impression when needed. The Soviet mortar is the best, but thats still a lot of MP to shell out.

The ZIS doesnt handle Brumbars/panthers/ high vet P4s well, but it doesnt need to. The SU-85 counters all of those and Soviets generally have the largest number of snaring troops to screen.

UKF needs its stronk AF AT gun for P-4s and heavier tanks as the Firefly has inefficient dps vs mediums, Crommy gets beaten like the Broncos by other mediums, and UKF lacks significant numbers of quality snares. Oh, and the Firefly is insanely expensive, so buying 2 FF vs FF and AT is kinda prohibitive.

Ost needs the Pak to deal with superior allied light tanks. Pschreck'd Pgrens dont really work vs good players 1v1 and Ost takes a LOT of damage from bleed due to low squad counts and expensive reinforcement costs. Ignoring 5 man grens of course.

snip

I gave you the information that is relevant for AT guns.

AoE Pen is mostly irrelevant and the difference is 5.

You NEVER take in isolation RELOAD values, because it's only 1 component of the shooting cycle. IIRC it should be Ready aim + Fire aim + Wind up >> Shoot >> Wind down + Cooldown + Reload

Which is why i listed ROF and TTS.

Vertical rotation is also irrelevant.



The differences are minimal. The fact that the Zis have access to vet 0 barrage and +2 crew offsets the 1s difference in Rof, the 2 rotation speed difference (which was added to help the faction against light vehicles) and the 10 difference in penetration.

To make it complete, vet wise:

https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide#1220


Zis:
Unlocks the "Tracking" ability.

+30% rotation speed.
+30% reload speed.

+20% reload speed.
+30% penetration.
+6.25% range of the "Light Artillery Barrage" ability.

Pak40:
Unlocks the "Target Weak Point" ability.

+30% rotation speed.
+30% reload speed.

+10% reload speed.
+30% penetration.

Pounder:
Unlocks the "Rapid Maneuvers" ability.

+100% rotation speed.
+30% reload speed.

+30% accuracy.
+30% penetration.