Soviet Assault Troops and Penal Battalion Rework

The Soviet Faction feels incomplete to me and the themes are often contradicted by it's unit designs. Penal Battalions trade army size for a small cadre of premium troops, which contradicts both the unit and army themes. Conscripts are defensive support infantry that struggle with scaling, especially if T2 is built. The Red Army itself uses very few PPSh Submachine Guns, in fact Sturmgewehrs are much more common in this game than PPSh's!

In this concept, Conscripts are the utility unit envisioned by the developers, building cover, holding the line, and reinforcing other units. Penals are expendable attackers, they get assigned the jobs that you don't often come home from (attacking Panzers with PTRS, or using a flamethrower (flamethrower troops had an exceptionally high mortality rate). Assault Troops grants them an offensive Submachine Gun squad which strongly fits the theme of the Red Army, as well as a real Grenade, and something for Conscripts to support if Shocks or Guards aren't available.

Penal Battalion:

The Penal Battalion is a point of contention in the community, starting off as a Panzergrenadier counterpart and eventually settling as an AI/AT unit that excels in neither capacity.

• Penals Troops are now a 5 men armed with Conscript Mosin-Nagants and priced in the 200-220 range.
  
• They can be upgraded with a Offensive Package or a PTRS Package. The Flamethrower will grant a single ROKS-3 Flamethrower and a full compliment of SVT Rifles. The PTRS Package will grant a pair of PTRS Anti-Tank Rifles and increase the squad size to 6, an additional pair of undroppable Guard's PTRS are available for free with Mobilize Reserves.
  
• Penals equipped with the Airborne Guard's Weapon Drop will be equipped with Shock Troop PPSh's and have their squad size increased to 6.
  

This gives the Penal Troops a role as an unit that is expected to take on the most dangerous objectives (using a flamethrower or attacking a tank with a rifle) and get results at the cost of their own lives.

Assault Troops:

The Soviets are a faction that is lacking in offensive infantry firepower, ironic considering they produced more SMG's than all other armies combined. This results on them crutching heavily on the T-70 to bridge the gap into SU-85's and Mobilize Reserves. Assault Troops are meant to give them an assault unit to help them succeed against upgraded enemy troops, and an offensive unit for defense-oriented Conscripts to support.

• Assault Troops are a 6 man squad armed with PPSh's slightly below Conscript PPSh effectiveness, priced around 270-290. They have Oorah and are also equipped with a weak F1 Grenade with stats similar to the Panzerfusilier Grenade. They gain Shock Troop PPSh's with Mobilize Reserves.
  
• Assault Troops armed equipped with the Airborne Guard's Weapon Drop will gain 2 SVT Rifles with Panzergrenadier G43 style DPS.
  

Although initially I wanted this to be an HQ unit, the idea is flawed as putting Assault Troops in an M3 would be far too powerful. Forcing them to buy their PPSh's helps to alleviate this, but then the unit crossed PPSh icon is misleading and something else has to be done for the Crate Drop. Given that T1 Flamethrower Penals should be sufficient for offense, I feel it is best to place these guys squarely in T2.

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Need reduce reinforcement cost and time too,or nerf too much

Penals:

-Why would you bother spending 160mp + 230mp for a worst Conscript squad (5 models with Cons Mosins).
-Penals with flamer were oppressive only when they had sprint + Elite levels of stats. At that price point/performance, a CE squad performs much better at 170mp.
-You give them a long build time, therefore making them more useless as an opening unit compared to conscripts.
-Comparing to preview patch, you are making them a worse unit. What is the reason to get T1? A single pair of PTRS won't cut it against LV so you still need either wasting 460/500mp + munitions when you can just play with Conscripts and a Zis gun. That won't bleed you as much, scales much better and doesn't require muni investment.


If Penals are not meant to be a strong opening unit nor have great usage on late game, there's no reason to bother getting them. At that point you have a much worse non doctrinal Guard with no utility by the timing you are thinking of getting them.

Assault Troops:
Adding one more unit feels like it will clash with the different types of infantry squads Soviets have access through doctrinal means.
It's basically competing with PPSH, SVT, Shocks.

You are basically giving them Assault Grenadiers that require 160mp invested on tech to work. The question this unit creates is basically, would a worse version of current live Penals be good if they were added in T2?

I can’t say i am for additional squads to the Soviet tech, but i really want to see Penals redesigned visually to be like regular soviet Riflemen (changed model and adjusted description and etc.). 3D model like on attached screenshot in post #1.

I can’t say i am for additional squads to the Soviet tech, but i really want to see Penals redesigned visually to be like regular soviet Riflemen (changed model and adjusted description and etc.). 3D model like on attached screenshot in post #1.

Agreed on additional Soviet squads, especially since I prefer the patch preview version of Penals. However I'm surprised that Assault Troops don't use the MG crew models. In my opinion they look far more "aggressive" with those ammo belts on ther chests, plus they aren't used for anything beside MGs.

Just make PPSh-41 a no-doctrine alternative for the 7th person. Which gives the Grenade. DP-27 for conscripts as a commander instead of PPSh-41. But this is nothing more than a theory, we all know perfectly well that there will be no major rework.

Penals:

1. Why would you bother spending 160mp + 230mp for a worst Conscript squad (5 models with Cons Mosins).
2. Penals with flamer were oppressive only when they had sprint + Elite levels of stats. At that price point/performance, a CE squad performs much better at 170mp.
3. You give them a long build time, therefore making them more useless as an opening unit compared to conscripts.
4. Comparing to preview patch, you are making them a worse unit. What is the reason to get T1? A single pair of PTRS won't cut it against LV so you still need either wasting 460/500mp + munitions when you can just play with Conscripts and a Zis gun. That won't bleed you as much, scales much better and doesn't require muni investment.

If Penals are not meant to be a strong opening unit nor have great usage on late game, there's no reason to bother getting them. At that point you have a much worse non doctrinal Guard with no utility by the timing you are thinking of getting them.

1. My goal was for them to be a undesirable as a mainline, but to choose their role via upgrades. The main reason they are 5 men is because of the Flamethrower upgrade since upgrades cannot reduce squad size, only increase it.
2. My balance point for the Flamethrower Upgrade was taking into account that Riflemen Flamethrowers were removed, and the fact that Vet 3 RET's are the only 5-man Flamethrower squad. I was concerned that there would be pushback against a 5-man Flamethrower Team with SVT's, or a 6 man Flamethrower Team at all.
3. The long build time was a bit of an afterthought, I added it when I was imagining how things would be used and became concerned about Flamethrower spam being too strong. It may not be necessary.
4. I think 2 PTRS Rifles is sufficient for Light Vehicle phase, that's what they currently get and that is what Guards get. At T4 they would get an additional pair of non-droppable PTRS for free to help chip away at heavier units, maybe make it the Guard model so they don't lose out what little AI they had before, purely for self-defence. The PTRS's can be adjusted to be stronger against vehicles if they need to be.

The goal is for Penal Troops to fill Light AV/AT and Light Assault roles, but not overshadow Conscripts or be used as a mainline. Perhaps I was too concerned about them being overpowered and made them too weak. Although 6-man Flamethrower Teams seem excessive, I would gladly return the SVT to them and/or reduce their cost considerably.

Assault Troops:
Adding one more unit feels like it will clash with the different types of infantry squads Soviets have access through doctrinal means.
It's basically competing with PPSH, SVT, Shocks.

You are basically giving them Assault Grenadiers that require 160mp invested on tech to work. The question this unit creates is basically, would a worse version of current live Penals be good if they were added in T2?

They're not worse than current Penals, having an SMG armed unit that is worse than the weakest SAR armed unit would be an accomplishment! Roughly they're on-par with Assault Grenadiers, but they have Oorah and a Grenade. For improved scaling they gain the Shock Troop PPSh's with MR in addition to whatever veterancy bonuses they might have. The reason I add these is because although many do, not every doctrine has Shock Troops or Guards, and the Soviets struggle through mid-game as it is. Plus the Red Army quite frankly just feels wrong without SMG's, like Germans without any Machine Guns.

I can’t say i am for additional squads to the Soviet tech, but i really want to see Penals redesigned visually to be like regular soviet Riflemen (changed model and adjusted description and etc.). 3D model like on attached screenshot in post #1.

My main issue with that would be that the Penals, although their portrayal is at-odds with their role, do have some things that fit the bill. Tossing bags of explosives and charting tanks with Anti-Tank rifles both seem like very 'suicide-squad' type attacks which would seem odd for Soviet Riflemen to be doing. That's the sort of thing you give to Penal Troops who will probably get themselves killed or Elite Troops who at least have the experience and training to survive such madness. It would also be a shame to see the unit completely deleted, since I do quite like their voices and attitudes.

Agreed on additional Soviet squads, especially since I prefer the patch preview version of Penals. However I'm surprised that Assault Troops don't use the MG crew models. In my opinion they look far more "aggressive" with those ammo belts on ther chests, plus they aren't used for anything beside MGs.

I didn't use the MG Crew Model because I figured a Maxim HMG belt wouldn't have much use for a PPSh-armed soldier. I did consider the generic crewman model, but he too has a bandolier for Stripper Clips which he wouldn't need. The 'Elite Rifleman' model was my third pick and he looks good rockin' a PPSh, so it's what I went with!

My suggestion:

Penals/Conscripts are both separated into aggressive/defensive mainline infatry.

Penals get 6 PPsh (or 5 +1 pistol with commissar), ourah (as vet 1), molotov, AT grenade (lose satchel/PTRS). Unit balanced around 200-220 cost (has Ppsh close to pioneer MP-40).

Conscript get "Hit the dirt" as a vet 1 ability (timed), HE grenade, AT grenade with 5 extra range (they lose ourah)

Both ourah and hit the dirt scale with veterancy.

M3 cost to 220 manpower (no fuel) passenger no longer can fire (or requires 30-60 mu upgrade to be able to fire)

Tech changes:

Conscripts moved to T2.

T1/T2 cost down to 60 manpower build time reduce, now provides access only to Penal/m3 and Conscripts/mortar. The rest of the cost is move to upgrade that unlock the other units.

Experimental: Zis now in T1 after upgrade, upgrade in T2 unlock 2 PTRS for conscripts.

AT rifles redesign as a purely AT weapons with little to no AI. Certain units (like Guards) get a timed ability that make them lay down and fire the AT rifles with increased accuracy vs infatry.

In sort T1 aim at caping the map faster by more difficult to defend, while T2 caping slower but defending easier.

snip

In contrast to that, OP made actually subtle and reasonable suggestions.
And OP made absolutely horrible ones.

elchino7 said it all already, you don't make a unit more "unique" by making it completely undesirable and underwhelming at ALL stages of the game.

My suggestion:

Penals/Conscripts are both separated into aggressive/defensive mainline infatry.

Penals get 6 PPsh (or 5 +1 pistol with commissar), ourah (as vet 1), molotov, AT grenade (lose satchel/PTRS). Unit balanced around 200-220 cost (has Ppsh close to pioneer MP-40).

Conscript get "Hit the dirt" as a vet 1 ability (timed), HE grenade, AT grenade with 5 extra range (they lose ourah)

Both ourah and hit the dirt scale with veterancy.

M3 cost to 220 manpower (no fuel) passenger no longer can fire (or requires 30-60 mu upgrade to be able to fire)

Tech changes:

Conscripts moved to T2.

T1/T2 cost down to 60 manpower build time reduce, now provides access only to Penal/m3 and Conscripts/mortar. The rest of the cost is move to upgrade that unlock the other units.

Experimental: Zis now in T1 after upgrade, upgrade in T2 unlock 2 PTRS for conscripts.

AT rifles redesign as a purely AT weapons with little to no AI. Certain units (like Guards) get a timed ability that make them lay down and fire the AT rifles with increased accuracy vs infatry.

In sort T1 aim at caping the map faster by more difficult to defend, while T2 caping slower but defending easier.

ah yes. Nerf to every section of soviet early game. Something that is not required.

ah yes. Nerf to every section of soviet early game. Something that is not required.

You are confusing design and balance. They are separate issues.

1- We had 270mp Penals with flamers for years and they were still bad. Cause 190/200mp CE (which were worse than current CE) were doing a better job while providing utility.

2- RET/RE Flamethrowers can still get another weapon upgrade/minesweeper. The problem is not the flamer, it's what the unit which get access to them has. Rifles had smoke, HE grenades and snares. The issue was never the amount of models the squad has.

4- You might want to reword it cause it seems like you are just giving them 3 PTRS total with MR.

The 2/3 PTRS end up been not enough in the light vehicle phase, specially in 1v1. FHT/Flak HT can do too much dmg and P2 can move around the map and the moment you are forced to retreat your whole line collapses.


Whatever you are designing, you have to think the following thing:
Why would i bother going on a tech with a clowncar, a sniper and a infantry unit vs playing with Conscripts + CE and T2.


A) I think you are trying to shoehorn a unit based on historical flavour. Power and timing is weird. You say you want to improve midgame but they are effectively an Assault Grenadier that requires tech. AssG shines because they are an excellent opening unit combined with the effects of tech rushing. Not due to their scaling.

B) Calling them worse than Penals might be an exaggeration. But i think i valued more the all around versatility of DPS profile rather than been just good at close range DPS.

A) I think you are trying to shoehorn a unit based on historical flavour. Power and timing is weird. You say you want to improve midgame but they are effectively an Assault Grenadier that requires tech. AssG shines because they are an excellent opening unit combined with the effects of tech rushing. Not due to their scaling.

Its not even historical flavour.
Penal BATTALIONS were composed of officers and had supply priority over regular army troops, they had highly trained military personal in them and were very well supplied. They both, make sense and do deserve elite/semi-elite infantry status in historical context.

Penal COMPANIES are the "run into meat grinder" meme.

Relic having battalions in name, but describing companies in flavor text isn't helping here either.

...

I think you have mix of good/workable ideas but they unfortunately clash with other concepts that are already in the game. Both Penals and Conscripts vanilla look like they could work. It's everything else around the game that make them fail.


1- All factions are able to build a complementary unit to their starter one from the get go. Moving Conscripts to T2 is weird. Either case of applying the experimental change or not, you end up with one tier having 4 units and the other 3.

2- Penals had always been elite/semi lite units and it might be weird moving them to be Osttruppen like units.
Not sure if they are too good (Osttruppen like) or too bad because they don't have access to a strong support unit like the MG42 nor a transition to a strong unit like PG/LVs. We haven't seen too many Osttruppen games on the preview patch so not sure how successful that design can be. On top of that you didn't suggest anything to make them be good late game.

3- Penals are designed to be good on their own while Conscripts are modular based on increased amount of tools available through commanders.

4- I'm on the boat that 2x PTRS design only work when they are also good as AI. You need a completely different profile and increased number of them to make them equivalent to other factions AT infantry units.

1- We had 270mp Penals with flamers for years and they were still bad. Cause 190/200mp CE (which were worse than current CE) were doing a better job while providing utility.

There is nothing to support that since flamer damage changed had changed only recently and did not have the same power level for "years". Flamer where available to riflemen for year and they where not an issue until they where patched.

The reason people did not use Penal was that maxim spam was OP.

There is nothing to indicate that Penal where bad, it was more of T1 being bad option than Penal being bad.

2- RET/RE Flamethrowers can still get another weapon upgrade/minesweeper. The problem is not the flamer, it's what the unit which get access to them has. Rifles had smoke, HE grenades and snares. The issue was never the amount of models the squad has.

Again there is nothing to support that.

Durability is a key factor for mid range unit like flamer units.

Flamer Penal where OP as hell after the patch without smoke grenade and HE greande

4- You might want to reword it cause it seems like you are just giving them 3 PTRS total with MR.

The 2/3 PTRS end up been not enough in the light vehicle phase, specially in 1v1. FHT/Flak HT can do too much dmg and P2 can move around the map and the moment you are forced to retreat your whole line collapses.

The idea that PTRS should be able to counter the FHT/FHT easily is flawed to begin. These are dedicated AI unit being shut down by a single PTRS squad would simply make them obsolete.

In addition there are changes that can be made for this units that would make them easier to balance. For instance DOT flame can become available only via ability while suppression can become a separate firing mod for AAHT doing less damage.

Whatever you are designing, you have to think the following thing:
Why would i bother going on a tech with a clowncar, a sniper and a infantry unit vs playing with Conscripts + CE and T2.


A) I think you are trying to shoehorn a unit based on historical flavour. Power and timing is weird. You say you want to improve midgame but they are effectively an Assault Grenadier that requires tech. AssG shines because they are an excellent opening unit combined with the effects of tech rushing. Not due to their scaling.

B) Calling them worse than Penals might be an exaggeration. But i think i valued more the all around versatility of DPS profile rather than been just good at close range DPS.

Its not even historical flavour.
Penal BATTALIONS were composed of officers and had supply priority over regular army troops, they had highly trained military personal in them and were very well supplied. They both, make sense and do deserve elite/semi-elite infantry status in historical context.

Penal COMPANIES are the "run into meat grinder" meme.

Relic having battalions in name, but describing companies in flavor text isn't helping here either.

Even the Penalty Companies were well staffed. Well fed. And in the later stages of the war, they had a large mass of people from the ROA (Osttruppen), so they had a large number of MG-42 and, accordingly, soldiers who know how to handle German weapons.

I think you have mix of good/workable ideas but they unfortunately clash with other concepts that are already in the game. Both Penals and Conscripts vanilla look like they could work. It's everything else around the game that make them fail.


1- All factions are able to build a complementary unit to their starter one from the get go. Moving Conscripts to T2 is weird. Either case of applying the experimental change or not, you end up with one tier having 4 units and the other 3.

I see no problem with that. Each faction is different and there are no rules.

Worse case scenario one can simply move Zis to HQ available after T1 or T2 is fully teched.

2- Penals had always been elite/semi lite units and it might be weird moving them to be Osttruppen like units.

If they are "elite/semi elite" they are timing is wrong. It is as simple as that.

Not sure if they are too good (Osttruppen like) or too bad because they don't have access to a strong support unit like the MG42 nor a transition to a strong unit like PG/LVs. We haven't seen too many Osttruppen games on the preview patch so not sure how successful that design can be. On top of that you didn't suggest anything to make them be good late game.

Osttruppen are defensive infatry, suggest Penal are offensive so there is little analogy.

3- Penals are designed to be good on their own while Conscripts are modular based on increased amount of tools available through commanders.

Conscripts with 7 men upgrade are fine with or without commanders.

4- I'm on the boat that 2x PTRS design only work when they are also good as AI. You need a completely different profile and increased number of them to make them equivalent to other factions AT infantry units.

Not really other AT infatry far more expensive. The idea that PTRS units should operate on their own vs both infatry and vehicles is flawed to begin with and a recipe for trouble.

Its not even historical flavour.
Penal BATTALIONS were composed of officers and had supply priority over regular army troops, they had highly trained military personal in them and were very well supplied. They both, make sense and do deserve elite/semi-elite infantry status in historical context.

Penal COMPANIES are the "run into meat grinder" meme.

Relic having battalions in name, but describing companies in flavor text isn't helping here either.

I know that. But most people impression of them goes through that + Hollywood portrayal.

snip

1- You better search what recently is.
Flamers were stronger back then, cause they could just death crit your whole squad. Penals were the only unit in the game who had a flamer which wouldn't explode. Rifleman flamer became problematic when the flamethrower explosion was basically removed from the game.

That's like your sole unique opinion. Everything in the game was better than going 270mp Penals. Whether it was Cons spam/PPSH/PTRS, clowncar, sniper, maxim spam, Guard spam, double Shock, Partisans, Irregulars.

2- Which is what i said.

Penals with flamer were oppressive only when they had sprint + Elite levels of stats.

Not a single moment before that.

In addition there are changes that can be made for this units that would make them easier to balance. For instance DOT flame can become available only via ability while suppression can become a separate firing mod for AAHT doing less damage

3- These are only your ideas, that you need to include in your own whole mod build suggestion. If someone makes a suggestion, you can expect a counterpoint to work only if you completely rework the whole game around it.
A single AT gun doesn't shut down the whole map.

The problem is not the PTRS weapon on it's own. Its on which unit and tier it's assigned to and what tools are available to them.