Abandon

Yes it is due to player qualities. That's you kicking the ball incorrectly, a modern football is designed to fly predictably.

You're still trying to argue that a football being a "few centimeters off" is somehow comparable to handing an opponent a vehicle in CoH2 through a 5% chance, and I have no clue if you're intentionally being obtuse or not.



Non sequitur.

how is it non sequitur? a game is designed to simulate reality as close as possible, meaning randomness and more outcomes is better than 1s and 0s.

im done here, back to what i said earlier. thank god relic still has control. and let see where they go with coh3. if relic is reading this, please remember dow3. please respect all fan voices. please remember coh1 was one of the highest review rts, because it did something braver and against the norms.

and also someday, that $1m dollar prize money theory can come true, and let the players and spectators enjoy full coh mechanics. hopefully the 'pros' approach this game from a healthy mindset and less dictative.

and vonivan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hulk sulk

i dont think voicing against the removal of core mechanics like abandon and mgc is due to lack of basic understanding of the game.

again, your post proves what i felt earlier. about the elistist pov, discussing on concepts like this, concepts over in game results, about shooting down people, about randomness is bad mechanics, about the need to align with the hulks and the 'pros', about lack of contribution because some are not elite enough to join in the chorus for removal of abandon.

i guess life is bad mechanic too.

You are a daft boy and you make me angry.

My only hope is you come around and change your perspective, but until then have fun in rank 2000 forever with your unwillingness to learn and baseless claims with no merit as everyone laughs at you for your willful incompetence while anyone who tries to help you is labeled elitist. I only hope for your sake that doesn't carry over into your personal life.

You are a daft boy and you make me angry.

My only hope is you come around and change your perspective, but until then have fun in rank 2000 forever with your unwillingness to learn and baseless claims with no merit as everyone laughs at you for your willful incompetence while anyone who tries to help you is labeled elitist. I only hope for your sake that doesn't carry over into your personal life.

you had to resort to personal attacks? wow. so elitist.

anyway i made my points earlier. i dont think this goes anyway anymore.

i vote keep abandon mgc and randomness.

the balls in your court relic. 7000 active players play the game with rng, abandon and mgc. keep the control, keep the creativity flowing and out of box possibilities of this series.

and put that $1m pize money up to silence the few critics.

Well, so tiny that all pro players unanimously agreed that it needs to be removed in tournaments.

I do understand the need to minimize that kind of RNG when its actual money at stake.

But then again, they already play on a mod which removes it.
No one is getting paid anything on ranked nor ranked is limited in any way to anyone however.

I have played DoW3 and its scary how CoH2 becomes more and more like DoW3 gameplay wise with removal of all the series defining traits.

I've played DoW2 when synch kills were removed from all units but heroes.
Did it help competitive play? Sure it did. But it also killed defining feature of DoW series, DoW3 never had any synch kills and there was massive community outrage about it too.

I would hate to see CoH go the same way, because if people keep complaining as they do and these features will get nerfed to the ground and then removed, we might see DoW3 CoH edition in the future.

I do understand the need to minimize that kind of RNG when its actual money at stake.

But then again, they already play on a mod which removes it.
No one is getting paid anything on ranked nor ranked is limited in any way to anyone however.

I have played DoW3 and its scary how CoH2 becomes more and more like DoW3 gameplay wise with removal of all the series defining traits.

I've played DoW2 when synch kills were removed from all units but heroes.
Did it help competitive play? Sure it did. But it also killed defining feature of DoW series, DoW3 never had any synch kills and there was massive community outrage about it too.

I would hate to see CoH go the same way, because if people keep complaining as they do and these features will get nerfed to the ground and then removed, we might see DoW3 CoH edition in the future.

great post i agree.

i hope coh3 redefine 'competitive' plays as much as coh1 redefine rts.

rng and competitive can work together. and they are especially great for specatators.

we are too long stuck at sc2 is most balanced and hence most competitive and the best template for competitive pize money yada yada.

im just saying random status are fine and is a closer simulation of a real battle than just 1s or 0s, black or white.

again i make a hypothetic scenario, with a $1m prize money, competing coh2 with core mechanics enabled and no restriction on maps and commanders.

do you think top players wont train for it? do you think spectators wont enjoy it?

Jabulani, the "worst ball ever made".
"For the players it's terrible – particularly for the keepers because it's impossible to judge the trajectory. It's good when you play short passes but when you try to switch the ball with long passes it's really difficult to understand the trajectory. Sometimes it is impossible to control"

if messi hits the post, he just trains harder and make sure he narrows the angles.

"Lionel Messi stated, "The ball is very complicated for the goalkeepers and for us [forwards]"

Robinho, Buffon, Casillas, Fabiano, David James, Maradona, etc. Everyone complained about it because it was a "supernatural" ball that behave randomly in the air. Can you please drop the football comparison cause it's really bad.


You don't need to remove the mechanic, you need to make it less stupid.

I do understand the need to minimize that kind of RNG when its actual money at stake.

But then again, they already play on a mod which removes it.
No one is getting paid anything on ranked nor ranked is limited in any way to anyone however.

I have played DoW3 and its scary how CoH2 becomes more and more like DoW3 gameplay wise with removal of all the series defining traits.

I've played DoW2 when synch kills were removed from all units but heroes.
Did it help competitive play? Sure it did. But it also killed defining feature of DoW series, DoW3 never had any synch kills and there was massive community outrage about it too.

I would hate to see CoH go the same way, because if people keep complaining as they do and these features will get nerfed to the ground and then removed, we might see DoW3 CoH edition in the future.

My understanding of DoW3's failure was a smorgasbord of absolute failure that alienated everyone in some way or form be it game mechanics, artstyle, core features removed, and just terrible support all around. I don't think Coh2 is going to go down that route since the core game is in place and is enjoyed by the small but loyal playerbase that already exists and considering the major change being discussed in this thread is at best an obscure event that will probably only be changed to be less game swingy in the off chance it does happen you probably don't have to worry about the game going into DoW3 territory.

The thing that does worry me though is how absolutely fucked the recent 64 bit and map patch was. Also it's such a minor thing but it speaks volumes to the professionalism of the patch, but the 1v1 and 2v2 maps still after multiple map patches do not have correct labeling when it comes to what gamemode they are for "(2) Crossroads" this part. With the last map patch still having (1) and (2) for 1v1 and 2v2 respectively, while this map patch all of the new maps have no player indicator at all. It's just sloppy and shows a complete lack of care indicative of laziness or lack of desire on part of whoever was overseeing this update. I just sure hope I'm wrong though.

Jabulani, the "worst ball ever made".
"For the players it's terrible – particularly for the keepers because it's impossible to judge the trajectory. It's good when you play short passes but when you try to switch the ball with long passes it's really difficult to understand the trajectory. Sometimes it is impossible to control"



"Lionel Messi stated, "The ball is very complicated for the goalkeepers and for us [forwards]"

Robinho, Buffon, Casillas, Fabiano, David James, Maradona, etc. Everyone complained about it because it was a "supernatural" ball that behave randomly in the air. Can you please drop the football comparison cause it's really bad.


You don't need to remove the mechanic, you need to make it less stupid.

imo my football vs chess comparison is fine. some call for outright removal of abandon and mgc and that brings it closer to chess from football.

and i also made suggestion to make all vehicle crewable and with crew hp. but thats for future coh3.

coh2 as it stands, i dont think much can be done, things work fine as it is imo.

if you make abandon with fuel requirements, on top of high chance of being insta destroyed/immobile/mgc. makes no sense.

again refer to my earlier tightrope video. the genuine excitement of seeing the su85 get abandoned and the axis quick reaction by dropping the bombs, just nice she saved enough muni for it.

if you are a esport organizer, do you not like such excitement? do you not think this brings in more viewers?

While I agree Abandon should be changed, Automatch and Tournaments are two very different situations that require different solutions since the former is more of an "oh well that sucks, next game" situation, while a tournament abandon can result in you being defeated and out of the tournament entirely.

Of course they are different, but something being outright removed from the game because of competitive fairness is still a good indication that it's at least worth looking at for the rest of the playerbase

I have played DoW3 and its scary how CoH2 becomes more and more like DoW3 gameplay wise with removal of all the series defining traits.

How is abandon a series defining trait? You can't say it's so rare that it doesn't matter but also say it's series defining. Comparing abandon to sync kills doesn't make any sense

If you're talking about RNG in general, it's still involved in almost every aspect of the game. Removing/reworking one silly mechanic is not going to ruin the game

How is abandon a series defining trait? You can't say it's so rare that it doesn't matter but also say it's series defining. Comparing abandon to sync kills doesn't make any sense

Its such a "Series defining trait" that it wasn't even present in CoH1, to my knowledge.

if you are a esport organizer, do you not like such excitement? do you not think this brings in more viewers?

No, obviously, because it puts players off of competing, which results in smaller and less profitable e-sports events. Viewers aren't more interested in random events than they are in genuinely impressive and skilful plays performed by competitors.

Its such a "Series defining trait" that it wasn't even present in CoH1, to my knowledge.

"If cars are such transport defining commodity, why weren't they used in 1600?" kind of logic here at work.

"If cars are such transport defining commodity, why weren't they used in 1600?" kind of logic here at work.

How exactly is something that wasn't present in half of the entries in a series, and added in the latest of a series "Series defining"? How do you define "Series defining", anyway, because it just seems to be "something I like".

Your argument is closer to "Wings are a transport-defining feature" than it is your contrived straw-man.

How exactly is something that wasn't present in half of the entries in a series, and added in the latest of a series "Series defining"? How do you define "Series defining", anyway, because it just seems to be "something I like".

Your argument is closer to "Wings are a transport-defining feature" than it is your contrived straw-man.

The same way heroes in Warcraft 3 define Warcraft series despite them not being present in earlier entrances.
You also completely missed my original point, which is about collection of these mechanics making CoH2 what it is and more and more of them being removed, making the game as basic and plain as your reasoning.

If you want to play Sudden Strike so badly, go and play Sudden Strike.

i disagree, you can do everything about abandon. it is your choice to risk a dive or not.
some of you speak as if abandon is a game breaker. since when and which is a good example?

messi can train and have strong spatial awareness, but random factors during match may happens, the flight of the curve can be trained as much but still not perfect outcome like chess.

That is nonesense. You can influence abandon even less than accuracy and penetration, and even for those you are putting your game a fair bit into the hands of RNGsus. Abandon is a random occurance. You cannot do anything about it, because no one can influence if it triggers or not. It's like your game randomly bugsplatting in the middle of every Xth game.

Abandon is not a game breaker, it is just shitty design. Design wise there are no game breakers anymore in CoH2, the game is and has been in a decent to good state for at least two years. But your advise of 'don't lose your tank' is redundant and not more than a hollow phrase. Lost a game? 'Don't lose your units'. IS/Obers/Rifles/etc OP? Don't lose your units, just retreat. ISU OP? Just don't fight it, you have full control over it.

The same way heroes in Warcraft 3 define Warcraft series despite them not being present in earlier entrances.
You also completely missed my original point, which is about collection of these mechanics making CoH2 what it is and more and more of them being removed, making the game as basic and plain as your reasoning.

If you want to play Sudden Strike so badly, go and play Sudden Strike.

Hero units were present in both Warcraft 1 and 2, they were further expanded upon in Warcraft 3.

Abandon is not one of the mechanics that makes CoH2 "What it is", in the same way as Blizzard Tech and Flame Crits didn't make it "What it is". Just because a mechanic exists in the game doesnt make it "Defining", nor does it mean it is for the best to keep that mechanic, or at least not change it to become less terrible for the game.

Your original point stated that Abandon was somehow a "Defining feature" of the series, which is wrong. It's similarly wrong to say that CoH2 is becoming more similar to DoW3 in some way by the removal or reworking of terrible features of the game. You're making a VERY broad comparison that literally does not exist.

The same way heroes in Warcraft 3 define Warcraft series despite them not being present in earlier entrances.
You also completely missed my original point, which is about collection of these mechanics making CoH2 what it is and more and more of them being removed, making the game as basic and plain as your reasoning.

If you want to play Sudden Strike so badly, go and play Sudden Strike.

A couple of posts ago you said that abandon has next to no influence on gameplay. Now this is suddenly a defining trait of CoH? That's actually a quite poor trait then...

Blizzard, driver injured, crew shock, random stuns, OKW elite units moving down everything, Axis default win in the late game, UKF emplacement cancer,... all got removed, because they actually hindered gameplay. Yet this is how Relic initially wanted to define CoH2. But I'll tell you what: had they stuck to all this, CoH2 would probably be a dead game by now.

A couple of posts ago you said that abandon has next to no influence on gameplay. Now this is suddenly a defining trait of CoH? That's actually a quite poor trait then...

You too are missing my point.
Again, collection of these small mechanics is what makes the game for me and over the time, gradually, we see them being nerfed into complete irrelevance and removed shortly after, in endless chase of e-sports that will never come.

Some indeed were pure cancer, but they also were overabundant(blizzards, deep snow), but this one decides things too rarely for me to get so worked up to get rid of it and I don't understand people who don't play the game for money who are so against it. Some of these people act like it worked same was as in Men of War series(aka you're more likely to lose crew then actual tank).

Blizzard, driver injured, crew shock, random stuns, OKW elite units moving down everything, Axis default win in the late game, UKF emplacement cancer,... all got removed, because they actually hindered gameplay. Yet this is how Relic initially wanted to define CoH2. But I'll tell you what: had they stuck to all this, CoH2 would probably be a dead game by now.

Now you're just throwing horrible balance decisions and these "game turning" mechanics into the same bag with no distinction despite these being completely independent things. No idea why you even mention criticals, because outside of singular ability that had them as oversight, they never made it out of beta anyway.
And as I have said, its about how often you encounter it, blizzards or deep snow was something that was in every 2nd game and that indeed hindered on gameplay. Abandon however, even if you encounter one every single game, you're lucky if you can recover it in one every 5.

Snip

If it is so rare that you "Can't get worked up about it", why do you even care if it's removed? It is a bad mechanic that will not be missed. This desire to keep bad mechanics in the game because they're allegedly "Series defining" in some way is absurd.

It really doesn't matter that it's "rare", it should still be removed, because it negatively impacts games.

Lol, series defining. What a joke.

Engine damage from mines would be a closer take to series defining.