So is 5 man grens completely useless now

Miragefla pulled these from the editor. You'd have to ask him. Or ask GabrielSerealia.

Alright, thanks!

No more defensive bonus. -20%(ish cause it's more than that amount) dps from 0-6, and -20%(again ish) from 27-35 and only 7-11% dps increase in the middle for 3-4 units of range from the special model. Kinda feels like they are dead now.
I guess all hail Sanders who is the greatest Balance Guru who thinks this is very small apparently.

Exactly. Balance team is very good at killing "good and balanced units". They dont know what are they doing.

they are still going to be pretty good in medium-long range engagements, grenadiers aren't supposed to be this super strong frontline pushers anyway, WM is all about slowly advancing with combined arms.
You also still going to have the free healing which is really useful in many situations.

Grens no longer get Target Size from vet. That was changedd to rec Damage to stop them getting 1 shot by explosives.

so my theory that balance team intention to change vsl into volks is somewhat right?

the infantry company doctrine gives up heavy tanks, and you get volks and storm...going to get hammered by soviet and ukf heavies and even usf blob. then.

Single bar Rifles/Bren IS are still more expensive than VSL grenadiers. And late game they even cost the same for reinforcement.

Bar Rifles are 280+60 muni, VSL 270+60 muni with 2 cp. i'd say they are about the same(i wouldn't bother with the side tech cost cause the original design philosophy with these things has just been eroded away by the balance team at this point), Yes sections are indeed more expensive at 300+60 muni but their ability is non doctrinal. Imagine if lmg Para's were weaker than Obers or shocks were weaker than PG's for instance.

Off topic: Could you send me the formula for the DPS calculation?

Same on as every one else's. I will say some of it is wrong(on my end). If your wondering what the dps looks like here it is(i wish could give you the html but i don't know how): https://imgur.com/a/a2bVIuz

Edit: I could give the very messy python script used to calculate this but I'll just save you the trouble.

Alright, thanks!

DPS being calculated as: Damage x Accuracy x (Shots per burst x Shots fired before reload / Total time to shoot including reload)

Total time to shoot including reload = ((Shoot burst duration + Fire aim time + Wind up + Wind down)*Shoots fire before reload) + (Cooldown duration * Reload frequency) + (Reload duration)


Total damage:
accuracy(incremental, range, target_size, moving, cover)*damage(cover)*penetration(range, armor)*burst bullets(range, moving)*(1+reload frequency)
Burst bullets:
1 if single fire, otherwise
Burst duration(range, moving)*rate of fire(range)

Time required:
(wind up+fire aim(range)+burst duration(range, moving)+wind down+cooldown(range, moving))*(1+reload frequency)
- cooldown(range, moving) - fire aim(range) + ready aim(range) + reload duration(range)

DPS: total damage/time required

What about that weird compensation due to tick rate for autos.

What about that weird compensation due to tick rate for autos.

I don't know the answer.

I'm just telling you the formulas used to derive DPS. Either of them used by any of the stats pages we had through out the years. (The 2nd one is the one used by Cruzz and hence then serealia)

Bar Rifles are 280+60 muni, VSL 270+60 muni with 2 cp. i'd say they are about the same(i wouldn't bother with the side tech cost cause the original design philosophy with these things has just been eroded away by the balance team at this point), Yes sections are indeed more expensive at 300+60 muni but their ability is non doctrinal. Imagine if lmg Para's were weaker than Obers or shocks were weaker than PG's for instance.


Same on as every one else's. I will say some of it is wrong(on my end). If your wondering what the dps looks like here it is(i wish could give you the html but i don't know how): https://imgur.com/a/a2bVIuz

Edit: I could give the very messy python script used to calculate this but I'll just save you the trouble.

Fair point, I forgot to add the 30 MP for the fifth model of Grens. Yes, then I agrree that those squads are roughly equal in costs.

In general I think though that doctrinal abilities should not be stronger by default than stock choices. It is good enough if they offer a viable option.

In general I think though that doctrinal abilities should not be stronger by default than stock choices. It is good enough if they offer a viable option.

You see here I disagree. Though it's depends on circumstance but still non doc abelites don't lock you out of things. Like 5 man section don't lock Brits out of say their air assault(forgive me i forgot what it's called) where as VSL definitely does lock you out of JU87's. Or how doc Sherman/t34 is better than regular sherman/t34. Like You can't possibly say an ability that doesn't lock you out of stuff should be of equal value as an ability that does lock you out of stuff.

You see here I disagree. Though it's depends on circumstance but still non doc abelites don't lock you out of things. Like 5 man section don't lock Brits out of say their air assault(forgive me i forgot what it's called) where as VSL definitely does lock you out of JU87's. Or how doc Sherman/t34 is better than regular sherman/t34. Like You can't possibly say an ability that doesn't lock you out of stuff should be of equal value as an ability that does lock you out of stuff.

Yes, but this is faction design. The actual argument you should be making is "should IS have 5 men in the first place". Just as it is faction design that USF has crews for built-in repair and both Axis factions have stock elite units, something that Allied factions also need to sacrifice a slot for.

If doctrinal stuff should be better by default, we will mostly run into issues of needing to balance one OP unit after the other. This is especially crucial for complete factions like Ostheer and Soviets. Doctrinal units might just lead to one-dimensional builds and strategies.
I think we have a different understanding of "better" though: I don't mean "better" as stats (which many of the Shermans - your example - actually are), but cost efficiency wise. The StuGE does not have to be better than the Brummbar, neither do Assgrens or Osttruppen have to be better than normal Grens. They just have to offer something special.

Making a unit OP by default is a safe way to break a faction. Because if that occurs you have 2 options: 1. Buff ALL other factions/commanders to the point they can compete with the cheese or 2. nerf stock units to bring the overall power level back in line.

Fair point, I forgot to add the 30 MP for the fifth model of Grens. Yes, then I agrree that those squads are roughly equal in costs.

In general I think though that doctrinal abilities should not be stronger by default than stock choices. It is good enough if they offer a viable option.

Lumping the 5th model in with grens cost while leaving out the mp and fuel cost to unlock nades and upgrades for rifles doesnt show a complete and honest picture.

Vsl grens shoudnt be on par with fully kitted rifles or sections, ost regardless still has acces to their entire stock arsanal witch dont struggle vs allied inf mostly, its just grens that do with 4 men and vsl remedies that.

So you answer should be "why there are not useless now". Now give that answer.

I'm not the one making wild claims here.

But anyway, here is some perspective from ML4:

Lumping the 5th model in with grens cost while leaving out the mp and fuel cost to unlock nades and upgrades for rifles doesnt show a complete and honest picture.

Vsl grens shoudnt be on par with fully kitted rifles or sections, ost regardless still has acces to their entire stock arsanal witch dont struggle vs allied inf mostly, its just grens that do with 4 men and vsl remedies that.

I mean we had this topic plenty of times now in other threads, so I won't go into much detail here since everyone that is interested should please look at the older discussions.
My take on that is that Allied side techs are mostly used to time the main tech. Design wise, side techs are not optional for the most part and the main infantry is designed to have it sooner or later anyway. For Axis, these functions are just tied to the main tech, therefore I don't add these costs to the units themselves. There are also plenty of other reasons why this is my opinion, but as I said this is better discussed in one of the older threads.

I agree with your second point though: VSL fixed one of the very few holes in an otherwise complete faction. There was barely any weakness in Ostheer to play around anymore. Grenadiers did get survivability while retaining a very decent DPS boost. It was in most cases superior to the MG42 upgrade. I am glad it gets toned down to mostly survivability, so now there is a (hopefully equivalent) choice of either survivability OR DPS. Which is how in my opinion commander abilities should be designed: Offer choice to allow for a different playstyle/strategy, not replace something of the stock arsenal.

Cause Sections have better RA, Better DPS at all ranges but 0, Has nuke grenade, Doesn't have to deal with
Much stronger Shocks, Guards, Ranges, Paras, Cavs and Commandos + They don't have to face much stronger mainlines then themselves, can upgrade with weapons, get passive healing or sight. Sure they can't stop vehicle from bullying them. That seems very different from VSL m8.

And grens don't have to face PGrens (stock unit), Falls and Obers (stock unit). Also elite Axis infantry have nuke nades and ridiculous fuse time gonna get nerfed next patch (read patch notes).
AFAIK '-20% damage' applies to damage from all sources, it is not just an RNG stat like 'Received Accuracy'.

I mean we had this topic plenty of times now in other threads, so I won't go into much detail here since everyone that is interested should please look at the older discussions.
My take on that is that Allied side techs are mostly used to time the main tech. Design wise, side techs are not optional for the most part and the main infantry is designed to have it sooner or later anyway. For Axis, these functions are just tied to the main tech, therefore I don't add these costs to the units themselves. There are also plenty of other reasons why this is my opinion, but as I said this is better discussed in one of the older threads.

I agree with your second point though: VSL fixed one of the very few holes in an otherwise complete faction. There was barely any weakness in Ostheer to play around anymore. Grenadiers did get survivability while retaining a very decent DPS boost. It was in most cases superior to the MG42 upgrade. I am glad it gets toned down to mostly survivability, so now there is a (hopefully equivalent) choice of either survivability OR DPS. Which is how in my opinion commander abilities should be designed: Offer choice to allow for a different playstyle/strategy, not replace something of the stock arsenal.

I definitely agree with this, I much prefer when Doctrinal units/upgrades are supplemental "Sidegrades" than straight upgrades, like the old VSL was.

As an aside: I do wish all factions had all the tools they "need" nondoctrinally, and Doctrines were able to provide more esoteric options to augment them, rather than filling holes/deficiencies or fixing flaws with a faction.

No more defensive bonus.

Good. Getting a 5th man is already a defensive bonus

The received accuracy bonus for 5 man grens was a horrible idea. Especially once grenadier vet 3 started giving damage resistance

Yes, but this is faction design. The actual argument you should be making is "should IS have 5 men in the first place". Just as it is faction design that USF has crews for built-in repair and both Axis factions have stock elite units, something that Allied factions also need to sacrifice a slot for.

If doctrinal stuff should be better by default, we will mostly run into issues of needing to balance one OP unit after the other. This is especially crucial for complete factions like Ostheer and Soviets. Doctrinal units might just lead to one-dimensional builds and strategies.
I think we have a different understanding of "better" though: I don't mean "better" as stats (which many of the Shermans - your example - actually are), but cost efficiency wise. The StuGE does not have to be better than the Brummbar, neither do Assgrens or Osttruppen have to be better than normal Grens. They just have to offer something special.

Making a unit OP by default is a safe way to break a faction. Because if that occurs you have 2 options: 1. Buff ALL other factions/commanders to the point they can compete with the cheese or 2. nerf stock units to bring the overall power level back in line.

Hate to break it too you but Stug E isn't used as much as the brumbar and Assgrens are specifically used because they are stronger. Ostruppen are used not because they offer something different but it's because the the user to do something different.
M8 and cost effectiveness is worth nothing in this game. ans Agren with more hp models and vet can't do squat against shocks and neither can a t34/76 vs a KT despite being more cost efficient.

I'm not the one making wild claims here.

But anyway, here is some perspective from ML4:

Im gonna do something that you do m8 this time.
"This means nothing" "Far too many factors" "bla bla"
This is the one thing i really dislike of you. You are never honest. Or at the very least really vague. What does these stats mean. Absolutely nothing. Because they don't give an in depth look of what's going on here. You might go "well you asked if they were useless now, and several high seed players had success with them so their not useless", that aint a good answer bro.
I'm not trying alienate you, I'm just saying they need more tweak.

These stats mean the doctrine does just fine at competitive level despite you and mrgame2 losing your shit all over the place.