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So is 5 man grens completely useless now

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26 Jan 2021, 01:17 AM
#61
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

leaving aside the fact that osther is crutching on that commander and and still losing easily Vs sov and USF in the same tournament

The missing NERF is to the move dps, g43 loses 8% DPS on the move the stg loses 50%

Idk if it's heavy or not , just compare a rifle bar DPS Vs 5 green DPS until is balanced

No need for another mobile defence


OH with the perfect 50% WR
OH winning more games against soviets with 50.8%

Not sure how the commander ends up doing, but pro players deem it worth of using it for the tournament.
26 Jan 2021, 03:19 AM
#62
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794



I'm not the one making wild claims here.

But anyway, here is some perspective from ML4:


Guards,urban defence and mechanized company have clearly higher wr-all. Time to look at the call in infantry for these doctrines too?

Even wehrboo own mechanized assault did way better
26 Jan 2021, 03:45 AM
#63
avatar of Thamor

Posts: 290


Single bar Rifles/Bren IS are still more expensive than VSL grenadiers. And late game they even cost the same for reinforcement.


So what? Cost is irrelevant to this talk as Pgrens cost more and they can't win against IS or Rifle with weapon upgrades.
26 Jan 2021, 03:48 AM
#64
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jan 2021, 03:45 AMThamor


So what? Cost is irrelevant to this talk as Pgrens cost more and they can't win against IS or Rifle with weapon upgrades.


Pgrens are also 4 man and they drop model dps faster than allies cqc units. Just highlighting, imo pgrens are fine as things are
26 Jan 2021, 03:52 AM
#65
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794



OH with the perfect 50% WR
OH winning more games against soviets with 50.8%

Not sure how the commander ends up doing, but pro players deem it worth of using it for the tournament.


Allies still have higher win rates for all players. If we removed ukf outlier, the % of allies dominance grows higher too
26 Jan 2021, 04:54 AM
#66
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2021, 22:55 PMPip


By what measure are you saying that VSL is bad, exactly?

In the sense single upgraded rifles and sections can bully you now. As I said the cost is similar and it's doc ability. I mean they bully you even when you have non doc lmg what's the point.
26 Jan 2021, 05:53 AM
#67
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794


In the sense single upgraded rifles and sections can bully you now. As I said the cost is similar and it's doc ability. I mean they bully you even when you have non doc lmg what's the point.


Replace the HT with a Tiger. Problem solved. Vsl is pretty much volks now, I don't see why they can't get a tiger support
26 Jan 2021, 05:57 AM
#68
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jan 2021, 05:53 AMmrgame2


Replace the HT with a Tiger. Problem solved. Vsl is pretty much volks now, I don't see why they can't get a tiger support

Replace m10 in lend leas by a Pershing or croc, because ass section is pretty much ass gren and ass gren have heavy support.
26 Jan 2021, 05:58 AM
#69
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

"Replace the HT with a Tiger" is a hell of a sentence

That is a really confusing suggestion. Removing a huge early game unit, replacing it with a heavy tank?
26 Jan 2021, 06:01 AM
#70
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jan 2021, 05:53 AMmrgame2


Replace the HT with a Tiger. Problem solved. Vsl is pretty much volks now, I don't see why they can't get a tiger support

Idk, Kinda goes against "German Infantry Doctrine" naming convention
26 Jan 2021, 06:04 AM
#71
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563


Replace m10 in lend leas by a Pershing or croc, because ass section is pretty much ass gren and ass gren have heavy support.

Churches are non doc so is what's it called... Comet too(which is basically the persing in terms of armor and hp). They do have that already.
26 Jan 2021, 06:17 AM
#72
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

To be fair, i believe changing vls from a g43 to a stg is on a good direction at least, it make the upgrade more unique compare to G43 upgrade and also moving away from tapping models, which it should be, like with the section change. And sander already said that further adjustments will be done if needed, namely tweak for the stg's profile.

Maybe let the upgrade replace rifle nade with a hand thrown nade like pfusi ?
26 Jan 2021, 06:18 AM
#73
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794


Idk, Kinda goes against "German Infantry Doctrine" naming convention


Yes but the 'infantry' portion already nerfed to hell in v5 patch.

A compensation will be a heavy tank seems to synergize better with the new volksGrens :D
26 Jan 2021, 06:24 AM
#74
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jan 2021, 06:18 AMmrgame2


Yes but the 'infantry' portion already nerfed to hell in v5 patch.



Vls is not the only "infantry portion" of the Commander. Stomptrooper is an infantry unit, you have the HT which support the infantry and then the frag bomb - an anti infantry off map, the theme is there mor than ever.
26 Jan 2021, 06:24 AM
#75
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794


Replace m10 in lend leas by a Pershing or croc, because ass section is pretty much ass gren and ass gren have heavy support.


Assualt section are better than assgren, no?
And you got m10 spamming with the doctrine. You sure you want a croc which is AI to supplement your AI ass sec?
26 Jan 2021, 06:27 AM
#76
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794



Vls is not the only "infantry portion" of the Commander. Stomptrooper is an infantry unit, you have the HT which support the infantry and then the frag bomb - an anti infantry off map, the theme is there mor than ever.


Maybe it's me, only will call in storm as last resort, to cap cutoff or for fast deploy to hold the front.
26 Jan 2021, 06:37 AM
#77
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1


Churches are non doc so is what's it called... Comet too(which is basically the persing in terms of armor and hp). They do have that already.

The croc is the Churchill with flamethrower, but that was just an example of how silly the ideas of putting tiger in vls doc can be.
26 Jan 2021, 07:22 AM
#78
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289


Now how do I explain this, the cost most of side tech in the game is really arbitrary at this. The original purpose of these side techs were to force you the player to decide to I sacrifice teching up for making my already existing army stronger. That cost is of very little significance in that regard, it's actually a minor micro inconvenience at this point actually. And how would you evaluate that actually. Divide by the number of units you make what happens if you make more/less units. Then what kind of price are you willing to put on doctrinal exclusivity which locks you out of options that these side techs no not. It's not me being disingenuous it's me failing to account for many factor that has no way of being accounted for. Like rally what if you make 7 rifles in a game(make em replace em what ever) that cost of racks is nothing compared to giving up JU87's, Spotting scopes, Ninja panzers, Tiger and a lot of other things. If you can come up with a better metric for accounting for all of this i'd like to hear it.


Reinforce cost is arbitrary as well. Its mostly 90 or 120 mp depending on the squad numbers. Thats under a minute in mp recources, you are not even gonna notice it. Not even taking into account reinforce cost reduction later on, free healing on the squads.
To do it for one and not the other is misleading and dishonest.

And how does choosing a (infantry) doctrine that does not have ju87 tigers etc mandate vsl being op? Wich have nothing and i mean absolutly nothing to do with vsl. You are stretching things to far to make vsl and its doctrine seem up.
26 Jan 2021, 07:22 AM
#79
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jan 2021, 03:52 AMmrgame2


Allies still have higher win rates for all players. If we removed ukf outlier, the % of allies dominance grows higher too


I guess you skipped the part where OH won barely more games against Soviets, the most picked faction?

OH basically lost more games against USF and did extremely well against UKF.

Guess what happens when you take a look at games were they are more even skill wise:

When the difference is lower than 8

OH: 58.5% (41)
OKW: 50% (26)
SOV: 44.2% (43)
USF: 52.6% (19)
UKF: 20% (5)

Seed difference ≤16

51.7% (60)
45.3% (53)
53.8% (78)
53.8% (26)
22.2% (9)


Let me say this:

-Reminder this is a terminator format. This favours EFA who have a wider pool of simil commanders to pick from.
-Anything in the realm of around ±5% is BALANCED. It's only worth looking at heavy outliers values (see UKF, although the faction itself has always had problems outside of balance)
-Commander popularity tells a better story.
26 Jan 2021, 07:28 AM
#80
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

Well I took a bigger sample size by all. That seems vsl commander is not dominating unlike the other 3 allies commanders mentioned

Still yours show sov edging games won 41v43, 60v78?
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