RNG

I think the problem with RNG in COH2 is that is basically a consequence of the penetration system being reworked from Vanilla COH. What I mean is, in vanilla a bouncing shot would still do damage, just reduced, so this in turn meant that tank interactions had a wider range of play.

In COH2, a shot either pens or doesn't, either deals damage or not. So this creates a situation where tank destroyers need absurd pen values at absurd ranges to be useful, and every other tank basically needs to suicide dive to actually deal damage, and in suicie dives, with more factors at play and higeher risk situations, main gun crits, engine damage, abandons, etc become more impactful and decisive.

So now the system, becomes binary, where a crit is not a interesting situation that happens at mid to long range, or two various factors, it becomes an all or nothign moment with tanks in close proximity and usually one side in a very bad position, making it worse.

If the penetration system were to be reworked, to make damage more reliable but less 100 or nothing, rng crits would become more reasonable and less decisive, while still being a powerful moment that gives both players a change to play around it, instead of a you got a main gun crit at point blank, sucks, now your tank dies and it's abandonded in my side of the map.

Not for this game but future installment, but i think it's worth trying 2 things.

Point blank mechanic for tanks: Increase the penetration of all medium tanks at 0/3 range and it drastically decreases towards the current values at 5/7 range and then continues linearly as now. It makes meds not as obsolete towards high value armor if they manage to put the gun right inside the enemy tank. If the standard value is around 130pen at 0 range, it would basically be 180 (+40%) at 0 range and 127 pen at range 5 (assuming it loses 10 pen every 20 range)

Giving deflection dmg ONLY on TDs/Heavy (with heavy gun, not just armor) of around 25%. Provide factions base or through an upgrade access to AP shell switch mode. So TD don't have both high acc + pen and have to swap between each one.

Not for this game but future installment, but i think it's worth trying 2 things.

Point blank mechanic for tanks: Increase the penetration of all medium tanks at 0/3 range and it drastically decreases towards the current values at 5/7 range and then continues linearly as now. It makes meds not as obsolete towards high value armor if they manage to put the gun right inside the enemy tank. If the standard value is around 130pen at 0 range, it would basically be 180 (+40%) at 0 range and 127 pen at range 5 (assuming it loses 10 pen every 20 range)

For a future installment there wouldn't be any need for something this convoluted if it just introduces side armor instead. Then mediums could quite easily flank and penetrate heavies from the side rather than having to overextend to get rear armor hits.

It does sort of increase chances for main gun criticals, but not for abandons. Abandons are truly random

Main gun criticals are more common with "higher" ROF weapons that can damage tanks, because the chance rolls each time that weapon does damage to tank that's below the health threshold (ostwinds and ptrs for example are really good at causing main gun crits). The abandon critical only happens when the tank dies, so the amount of AT doesn't matter

No apology necessary mate, sorry if I came across angry. I've just read the "play a different game" argument a few too many times

Okay mate cool, i wasent being my best as well. I just dont want mgc or abandon removed outright. We already lost detracked tanks, blizzard, heavy engine damage, engine destroyed, flame crits, crew shock and probably even more.

What could be done id possible is limited the massive random crits to 1, so a mgc tank cant be abandoned, or a snared tank cant get mgc or abandon.

I also dont know the excact percentidge but they could be put lower then currently for mgc and abandon.

For a future installment there wouldn't be any need for something this convoluted if it just introduces side armor instead. Then mediums could quite easily flank and penetrate heavies from the side rather than having to overextend to get rear armor hits.

I found this harder to implement if we consider current game ballistic/hitbox/collisions into account. Side armor would work only if we consider the relative positions between 2 tanks.

The problem is that the game calculates penetration based on where it lands regardless if you are shooting from the front or the rear.

Yes, if armor vs penetration worked accounting for relative position between 2 tanks, i think side armor would be fine. With say a 120° split between front/side/rear or different distribution percentages (maybe higher values for front)

I found this harder to implement if we consider current game ballistic/hitbox/collisions into account. Side armor would work only if we consider the relative positions between 2 tanks.

The problem is that the game calculates penetration based on where it lands regardless if you are shooting from the front or the rear.

Yes, if armor vs penetration worked accounting for relative position between 2 tanks, i think side armor would be fine. With say a 120° split between front/side/rear or different distribution percentages (maybe higher values for front)

One can simply divide the hit box in 3 parts. Front, mid, back...

One can simply divide the hit box in 3 parts. Front, mid, back...

That doesn't solve the issue which i'm describing. Right now we have 2 hitbox parts and shells can still impact the rear armor from the front.

That doesn't solve the issue which i'm describing. Right now we have 2 hitbox parts and shells can still impact the rear armor from the front.

That would still be an issue regardless since shell that do not connect can penetrate via AOE penetration if the shell explode near the vehicle.

Okay mate cool, i wasent being my best as well. I just dont want mgc or abandon removed outright. We already lost detracked tanks, blizzard, heavy engine damage, engine destroyed, flame crits, crew shock and probably even more.

What could be done id possible is limited the massive random crits to 1, so a mgc tank cant be abandoned, or a snared tank cant get mgc or abandon.

I also dont know the excact percentidge but they could be put lower then currently for mgc and abandon.

Immobilize is still in the game. It requires specific mines or temporary in case of AEC. I can't remember now heavy engine dmg and engine destroyed is basically the same as thread breaker (immobilization).

Flame crits i supposed you refer to flamethrower crits. I would like if the explosion was bigger since it now only applies when the last model dies and the dmg is low (would just punish blobbing)

There are plenty of crew shock/stuns.

That would still be an issue regardless since shell that do not connect can penetrate via AOE penetration if the shell explode near the vehicle.

It wouldn't if the armor which has to be considered is based depending on the relative position between both tanks.

It wouldn't if the armor which has to be considered is based depending on the relative position between both tanks.

So you want a shell exploding behind a tank fire from the front/side to score frontal/side armor hit?

Immobilize is still in the game. It requires specific mines or temporary in case of AEC. I can't remember now heavy engine dmg and engine destroyed is basically the same as thread breaker (immobilization).

Flame crits i supposed you refer to flamethrower crits. I would like if the explosion was bigger since it now only applies when the last model dies and the dmg is low (would just punish blobbing)

There are plenty of crew shock/stuns.

Yeah afaik the obly the riegel mines can do that. It used to be rng with all mines i believe. I dont know of any other mine that can do that atm.

I speficly meant the mollie flame crits. When is was actualy a big threat, and not just a disloding tool, a not very good one at that.

Soviet and other mines being capped at 2 models, for the aake of ost.

And all the crew shock and stun are tied to vet abilities, i meant bouncing is2 isu tagdtiger kv2 rounds cuasing stun on bouncing.

So you want a shell exploding behind a tank fire from the front/side to score frontal/side armor hit?

I'm talking about collision hits. AoE penetration on tank vs tank combat is in now way relevant in the current game.

I'm talking about collision hits. AoE penetration on tank vs tank combat is in now way relevant in the current game.

Why is not relevant to Tank to Tank combat? it happens and it can create rear hits from shot fire from the front.

There is even a video where it seem like it is an AOE penetration hit.

Why is not relevant to Tank to Tank combat? it happens and it can create rear hits from shot fire from the front.

There is even a video where it seem like it is an AOE penetration hit.

I assume we are talking about different things. It's a complete miss and the AoE deals 160 dmg ?

I assume we are talking about different things. It's a complete miss and the AoE deals 160 dmg ?

In the video I saw it look as if 2 shot exploded on the ground right under the PzIV causing rear shot hits while being fire from the front. I am not sure about the damage but it looked as full damage.

In the video I saw it look as if 2 shot exploded on the ground right under the PzIV causing rear shot hits while being fire from the front. I am not sure about the damage but it looked as full damage.

i don't think this is an aoe hit, though. iirc there is a note in the editor under aoe penetration stating that it can't score rear armor hits and pen is always calculated vs frontal armor.
i think what you saw is rather a different phenomenon: a scatter shot will have a set distance it travels w/o collision check, mostly that is 5 m for tank projectiles. so a miss, or ground attack shot from under 5 m can theoretically phase through the front part of the hitbox and intersect with the rear as soon as collision is enabled.
but i can't say for sure as i've never tested it myself

i don't think this is an aoe hit, though. iirc there is a note in the editor under aoe penetration stating that it can't score rear armor hits and pen is always calculated vs frontal armor.
i think what you saw is rather a different phenomenon: a scatter shot will have a set distance it travels w/o collision check, mostly that is 5 m for tank projectiles. so a miss, or ground attack shot from under 5 m can theoretically phase through the front part of the hitbox and intersect with the rear as soon as collision is enabled.
but i can't say for sure as i've never tested it myself

That is interesting and probably worth looking into it.

Does this apply to vehicles only or too artillery also?

Because it would be rather easy to test for arty.

When discussing game design elements like this, I think we need to try and keep the objective in mind, which is to make the game more fun.

RNG has both positive and negative impacts on fun.
Positives:
Makes each match unique, reducing boredom/fatigue.
Adds a layer of challenge, where you need to plan for multiple eventualities.

Negatives:
Unfair/unequal, Your opponent may get better RNG than you leading to you loosing the match.

Note: resources dont just include units and fuel/muni/manpower, but also micro and macro in this context.

RNG is a spectrum. Some events are common, while others are very uncommon.

If there is a high chance of something happening, then it is worth preparing for. A good example of this is missing a tank shot. Since there is a high chance of this happening, it can be justified spending resources to prepare for this eventuality, so if you decide not to prepare then it is your fault/your decision, which is frustrating but fair.
This type of rng is good, because it makes matches unique, yet the high rates of the events mean that the amount of times the events happen to each player will balance out, and so it is fair.

If there is a low chance of something happening, then there is no way to justify preparing for it, and yet you can still get screwed by RNG. An example of this is a main gun crit. Since the chance is so low, You cannot justify spending your resources to prepare for it. If you did, you would probably loose to your opponent, because you are wasting your resources on something that may not even happen. Since you cant prepare for this type of RNG without wasting resources, you cant prepare for it without becoming un competitive, and yet you can still be screwed by it, so it is not your fault if you get screwed by this type of rng, which is extremely frustrating and unfair.
This type of rng is bad, because the chances are low enough that the event often only happens to one player per match, making it unfair.