mainline infantry

Many people complain that grenadier are not viable.
Others claim that VG become weak in mid game.
Some others that Conscripts are not good enough.
(There are some that claim riflemen are also bad but...)

If 3 out 5 mainline infatry are UP does that mean that problem lies elsewhere?

Yeah, the problem lies in expectations that cheap infantry should stand up to incomparably more expensive infantry, especially post upgrades.

But we don't talk noobs as a balance problem.

Also, feel free to cross conscripts out of that list of yours, new changes fix everything for them now that they get an upgrade in actually reasonable time frame for reasonable price.

I think you accidentally clicked New Thread instead of New Reply from your Penals thread. Or is there a need to split up the very same discussion in two threads?

edit: my bad if i misunderstood the aim of the thread.

I think that really only VG are underperforming significantly in their role, and that is mostly because OKW relies pretty hard on the VGs for their early to mid game.

I think that really only VG are underperforming significantly in their role, and that is mostly because OKW relies pretty hard on the VGs for their early to mid game.

Only early game and they do perform fine there.
By mid game you should already have LVs or obers on field.

Only early game and they do perform fine there.
By mid game you should already have LVs or obers on field.

you think the early game of OKW and volks is fine vs UFK? you having a laugh mate ?

Infantry sections need some of ther buffs reverted
Volks need some of the manpower and timing nerfs reverted
Cons need something for midgame
Grens, maybe can do more damage to suppressed units (elchino7 idea)

Grens, maybe can do more damage to suppressed units

That's a good idea, I would welcome that. It'll add some unique flair to Grens and make early game pretty cool.

you think the early game of OKW and volks is fine vs UFK? you having a laugh mate ?

You have spios and you should always be able to outnumber them.
Kubel is also surprisingly effective vs tommies if there is no UC around and if there is UC, you can easily, especially now, outcap brit and get to LVs faster.

Its also much easier to close on IS with volks now that IS no longer is capable of easily bursing model down.

So yeah, that matchup is fine in early game.

You have spios and you should always be able to outnumber them.
Kubel is also surprisingly effective vs tommies if there is no UC around and if there is UC, you can easily, especially now, outcap brit and get to LVs faster.

Its also much easier to close on IS with volks now that IS no longer is capable of easily bursing model down.

So yeah, that matchup is fine in early game.

and is this from your game experience or you just theory crafting?

Literally, everything you mentioned is not true and does not occur in game. sturms can on only ever win if they catch Infantry sections out close range otherwise they get rekt on approach, kubel gets rekt by IS unless ther standing in red cover which any player with half a brain would avoid + UC is mostly ther anyway vs OKW and volks loses to IS at all ranges so idk how your saying they can close into to IS.

it boggles my mind that ther are people here who say, this is fine, that is op, this is UP and yet they haven't even touched the game

And there is also the ocassional vickers hmg against which okw has no early game tool other than flanking.

and is this from your game experience or you just theory crafting?

Katitof with game experience? Not very likely.

I took the liberty of copying your post in this thread since I found to relevant.
(hope you do not mind, let me know if you do and I will removed it)

Had a few games with sov, 7 men arrive way to early and ostruppen is now not really that strong anymore i feel, Essentially at around 5-8 (Whenever t3 is build really) ostruppen fall into complete irrelvancy since the 7men conscripts will push them out of the map, combined with m42/zis and sandbags makes for a horrid opponent to go up against. And incredibly easy to play for sov. The matchup for wehr is insanely difficult now i think. I will test a few more games but the meta is so incredibly rigid. Ostruppen genuinely feel like the only option when playing vs sov rn.

Pls feel free to debate mainline infatry especially conscripts,grenadier,Vg and their relationship in this thread.

Also, feel free to cross conscripts out of that list of yours, new changes fix everything for them now that they get an upgrade in actually reasonable time frame for reasonable price.

conscripts are basically grenadiers that have to pay extra for molotov and AT nade... the only point when conscripts really start to shine is at vet 3 + 7 man... though the new mobilize reserves are something i have yet to test out...

conscripts are basically grenadiers that have to pay extra for molotov and AT nade... the only point when conscripts really start to shine is at vet 3 + 7 man... though the new mobilize reserves are something i have yet to test out...

Please don't discount the strength of Oorah, and especially not Merge when it comes to Conscript's power. Especially with the changes to Mobilise Reserves, and to the Soviet HT giving them on-field healing, Conscripts are looking rather nice now.

As a moderator mentioned in another thread, incidentally, I do think the idea Soviet pay for things as "side-tech" is at least slightly misleading, it apparently is intended as a factional retardation to slow the arrival of later units, rather than being an "extra cost" on top of Conscripts.

I would prefer if they just went and gave Cons their tools through regular teching though, and increased the price of certain tiers, if this is indeed the intention. It would increase linearity, but would remove confusion.

Please don't discount the strength of Oorah, and especially not Merge when it comes to Conscript's power. Especially with the changes to Mobilise Reserves, and to the Soviet HT giving them on-field healing, Conscripts are looking rather nice now.

oorah is strong but id argue that it is so because conscripts lose long range fights to grenadiers... if conscripts didnt have oorah then they would lose hard to grenadiers simply because grens have long range DPS while conscripts would simply bleed on approach... plus they get a riflenade on top...

merge`s main use is the engie flamethrower and supporting team weapons... meanwhile of the soviet teamweapons the only exceptional one around here is the zis3 while the maxim is still hot crap...

As a moderator mentioned in another thread, incidentally, I do think the idea Soviet pay for things as "side-tech" is at least slightly misleading, it apparently is intended as a factional retardation to slow the arrival of later units, rather than being an "extra cost" on top of Conscripts.

if that were true then side costs + tech costs should be comparable to any other faction... but this isnt true... soviet teching alone already costs more than any other faction... sidetechs bump up those costs even higher...

I would prefer if they just went and gave Cons their tools through regular teching though, and increased the price of certain tiers, if this is indeed the intention. It would increase linearity, but would remove confusion.

as ive said... soviet teching is already stupidly expensive... its down there with OKW as the highest teching cost ingame... (okw`s costs more fuel but SOV teching is incredibly manpower intensive)

Hmmm, I had hoped the IS capping nerf might alleviate the UKF vs OKW matchup from being so....well frankly a meme unless you outskill your opponent on the order of 1k rank places. Or Hamburg/ultra urban maps. Still sounds like it'll be a pretty lousy matchup, esp if they go a triple IS BO and muscle their way through your forces.

ISG coming online earlier in theory should help but that's an experimental build atm.

oorah is strong but id argue that it is so because conscripts lose long range fights to grenadiers... if grenadiers didnt have oorah then they would lose hard to grenadiers simply because grens have long range DPS and a riflenade on top...

merge`s main use is the engie flamethrower and supporting team weapons... meanwhile of the soviet teamweapons the only exceptional one around here is the zis3 while the maxim is still hot crap...



if that were true then side costs + tech costs should be comparable to any other faction... but this isnt true... soviet teching alone already costs more than any other faction... sidetechs bump up those costs even higher...



as ive said... soviet teching is already stupidly expensive... its down there with OKW as the highest teching cost ingame... (okw`s costs more fuel but SOV teching is incredibly manpower intensive)

Oorah is for more than just closing in on Grenadiers, it allows Conscripts to avoid MG arcs, escape danger more easily, get into position to throw a Molotov (Usually at a building with an MG in it), and (most pressingly) allows them to close in on vehicles for a snare. I'd argue that oorah more than makes up for the reduced range of Conscript snares.

Merging into Flamethrowers is an incredibly powerful tool, though. Their teamweapons (though often subpar, apart from the ZIS) being able to stay on the field more easily is rather strong, too. Merging into Guards is also very nice indeed, though of course they are a little squishier.

True to some degree, but It's difficult to look at raw teching costs and come to a genuinely perfect conclusion, due to differences between various armies' differences. I do think Soviet could do with a decrease in teching costs, but its not as easy to say "They should be the same as OST/USF/UKF", I don't think. A lot of balance decisions are difficult to make based merely on raw numbers, given that the way these numbers then interact with the game as a whole is very difficult to compute.

Also: I think Lelic probably don't want Soviet to not have to buy AT nades and Molotovs, due to the whole "Faction identity" thing.

Hmmm, I had hoped the IS capping nerf might alleviate the UKF vs OKW matchup from being so....well frankly a meme unless you outskill your opponent on the order of 1k rank places. Or Hamburg/ultra urban maps. Still sounds like it'll be a pretty lousy matchup, esp if they go a triple IS BO and muscle their way through your forces.

ISG coming online earlier in theory should help but that's an experimental build atm.

Hamburg/ultra urban maps might give the Assault Officer the opportunity to really shine, I wonder if he'd be enough to keep balance in UKF's favour in these sorts of maps? Or would they need Assault Tommies as well, to keep up with Sturmpioneers?