Penals, the Elephant in the room

Jump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 14:29 PMElaindil

Since It seems you are new to the game I will explain.

1) You soft lock yourself out of MGs, Mortars and most important ATGs.
2) Penals bleed very easy due to their RA and they cost a lot to reinforce specially early on.
3) They have 0 utility. They are either decent AI or Shitty AT atm.
4) Building T1 for sniper means that you basically pay 500 mp and 10 fuel just to get a single unit and if you get something else from T1 then you lose all early map presence and will struggle to get any ground.
5) No snares meaning that since you don't have any AT measures you will struggle to fight vehicles.

Clown car + Penals against OKW is the only semi-viable thing in T1 atm. Or if you are for example VonIvan\Kimbo you might pull off T1 against anyone.

All of this for 1v1 and most of this for team modes.

Jump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 14:29 PMElaindil

Since It seems you are new to the game I will explain.

1) You soft lock yourself out of MGs, Mortars and most important ATGs.
2) Penals bleed very easy due to their RA and they cost a lot to reinforce specially early on.
3) They have 0 utility. They are either decent AI or Shitty AT atm.
4) Building T1 for sniper means that you basically pay 500 mp and 10 fuel just to get a single unit and if you get something else from T1 then you lose all early map presence and will struggle to get any ground.
5) No snares meaning that since you don't have any AT measures you will struggle to fight vehicles.

Clown car + Penals against OKW is the only semi-viable thing in T1 atm. Or if you are for example VonIvan\Kimbo you might pull off T1 against anyone.

All of this for 1v1 and most of this for team modes.

Jump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 10:54 AMCrecer13

How are you going to redesign T1? This will definitely require adding a new unit to make T1 an alternative to T2. Adding new units is impossible.

Jump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 16:58 PMAerohank

Step1: Make Satchel bundle nade equivalent in time/AoE to make Penals viable anti-infantry after the early/midgame.
Step2: Penal Satchel now requires upgrade so they are no minute 1 Pgrens.
Step3: Penal Satchel, conscript Molos and AT nades are all unlocked together in a single upgrade. This makes combining conscripts and penals in a single build viable.

Penal problems solved.

Optional Step4: Reduce tech cost of T1 and T2, increase tech cost of T3 to make T1 a less 'all or nothing' investment and make T2 more attractive in the early game. This would make T1+T2 builds viable. the changes can be further expanded upon to make Soviets less cheesy by making zis3 barrage a vet ability (it's less needed when a stock grenade is available), and making penal PTRS rifles less effective against infantry since penal/maxim combos could be a thing actually worth making.

Jump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 10:32 AMVipper

That would be improvement with better result but it would be a redesign of Penal battalion since they would be an AI unit only.

Jump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 23:13 PMSkysTheLimit

You're the one who just said it's a problem that they can fight infantry and then become AT. So make them pick ptrs or SVTs before they build it instead of after

That's the simplest fix to the thing you say is an issue. Like I said I don't think they should do it

Jump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 07:30 AMVipper

It will also be a redesign of Penal something you have claimed at it will would "complicate".

Jump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 07:42 AMSkysTheLimit

It's hardly a redesign, that was the whole point. It was a simple solution avoiding the need to redesign in the first place

But I'll say once again, i don't think it's necessary. I think the current trajectory in the patch is a good one. Yours is very unclear

Jump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 07:45 AMVipper

To me turning an all round unit to specialized is redesign

Jump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 07:52 AMSkysTheLimit

That's already what penals do Vipper. They are not all around units, they can be one at time. They can't switch back and forth like an ISU

Guards are all around units. Penals can be one or the other, that's clearly not the same. All that change was intended for appease your strange issue with their having the flexibility of when to make that choice

Jump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 08:04 AMVipper

Ok I will call them transition units if it makes you happy.

Jump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 10:15 AMSkysTheLimit

Providing some good reasoning that your changes are better than what's in the patch would be preferred