Random OKW in team games – blood, guts and glory

Jump back to quoted post9 Mar 2021, 09:48 AMSmartie

Bad idea because your teammates dont get the extra fuel / muni.
But that could be changed and then the 221 could work as OKW's cache. Would still be a lot more expensive than the other factions chaches and doctrinal. This would make >Elite Armor a lot more attractive for Team Games.

Jump back to quoted post9 Mar 2021, 09:48 AMSmartie

Bad idea because your teammates dont get the extra fuel / muni.

Jump back to quoted post9 Mar 2021, 09:23 AMEsxile

Let's give cache to OKW, what could go wrong anyway?

Jump back to quoted post9 Mar 2021, 13:55 PMlemmiwinks

OKW has been nerfed in so many ways, it is not, what it was anymore and it lost many of it's former advantages, so it would be just fair. As people stated many times already, it is more likely to have 4 OKW players in a team, than to have 4 USF in one team.

Jump back to quoted post4 Dec 2020, 12:30 PMHannibal

That design is long gone and while I am not a friend of caches and their current design, it would add consistency though.

okw still has a number of highly efficient abilities and a non doc heavy tank. Infiltration nades cost the same as molitovs, spec ups sneak'n' sprint costs the same as where tactical movementfor example, they also still have salvage, while it's not a 1 to 1 being able to remove wrecks as cover and destroy team weapons for profit is a nice bonus. All of their vehicles beyond lights also have over 230 armour, being able to speed up acquisition of those themselves would certainly lead to issues...

Randoms can't choose who they play with, and 3v3+ is what they mostly play. And caches in larger modes are dirt cheap for what they bring. Playing with mostly OKW because of pure luck puts you at a disadvantage by default.

You can't pick anything when it's random, that's what random means. You might get hellen Keller playing from Ethiopia as a team mate and no amount of caches will fix that. This is the struggle of Randoms. The best advice I ever got for not being able to pick your team mates is to pick your team mates.

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 16:07 PMHannibal

OKWs general feature of being resource starved is gone. All their abilities and units (including the KT) have since been rebalanced to match their cost and their counterparts of other factions. All those abilities you mention are not comparable to the -25%(? I forgot already, too long ago) resource debuff they got previously.
The core faction of OKW has become very standardized, with some faction gimmicks just like every other faction. But they are far from the original design of resource starvation. While salvage is not useless, it is far from being really useful to generate enough additional income. You'll probably not be able to salvage more than 2-4 wrecks at the very best in a normal game, since not all of them are recoverable.

The early aquisition of OKW tanks does not cause issues, at least there is no reason to believe so. As I already said, OKW tanks have been balanced to their cost already compared to the other factions. Premade teams buils caches and there are no issues, I personally have not seen issues in game and I can't remember when the last serious complaint was that OKW tanks come way too early in team games. I can't even remember the last non-serious one.

Regarding the random teams:
You are missing the point. I have never said that random games will ALWAYS be balanced, what I said is that we could remove one additional layer of pure chance when there is no reason to keep it. If you play OKW, there is a decent chance that there will be no caches. Even if the matchmaking algorithm worked perfectly and you got a balanced match, you are at disadvantage by default. This is completely different from being screwed over by matchmaking because the community is small. Using random matchmaking as an argument is not adding anything to the topic. If it was then there would be no reason to simply delete units from time to time in random games, because accordingly that is what people want from these games or at least what they sign up to: total randomness.
But playing random is not about randomness. It is about having a match that is as fair as possible, with all restraints given the match making system.

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 16:51 PMpvtgooner

Why is no resource cache not viewed as asymmetric balance? I keep asking for more non doc tools for USF as well but keep being told its asymmetric balance. In fact, like you said, OKW no longer has the original design they did on wfa release, resource starved, late war faction. So if thats not the case anymore, isnt that more support evidence they dont need caches?

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 16:51 PMpvtgooner

Why is no resource cache not viewed as asymmetric balance? I keep asking for more non doc tools for USF as well but keep being told its asymmetric balance. In fact, like you said, OKW no longer has the original design they did on wfa release, resource starved, late war faction. So if thats not the case anymore, isnt that more support evidence they dont need caches?

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:12 PMPip

It isnt considered "Asymmetrical balance", as they can still benefit from an OST teammate's caches, the only thing it does is put additional strain on OSTheer teammates, inexplicably punish "all OKW" teams in a way that literally no other mono-faction team is, and mean OKW has nothing at all to spend excess MP on.

Thats weird because when I complain about the lack of rocket arty non doctrinally, im told i can rely on my Soviets Katy, which by your logic creates additional strain on teammates, inexplicably punish "all USF teams". If what I said isn't true, than its also not true for OKW caches. Faction A doesnt have x, Faction B has x, and therefore Faction A doesnt need x has always been the argument from balance team. Why would it suddenly change for OKW?

Its the same argument thats been around(and is totally faulty) for awhile. Give OKW caches and give factions missing tools the opportunity to use them non doctrinally. Or give no one caches non doc and put them behind commanders.


"In fact, like you said, OKW no longer has the original design they did on wfa release, resource starved, late war faction. So if thats not the case anymore, isnt that more support evidence they dont need caches?" is perhaps the least logical shitpost I've read in a while, by the way. The conclusion simply doesn't follow the "argument". "They're no longer resource starved so they should have less access to resources than other factions"

So if the fact theyre no longer resource starved is a nonsensical reason to not give someone caches, why the hell would it be a sensible argument to give them caches? Theyre no longer penalized so give them further increased performance? Because their default resource penalties would be greater evidence to give them supplemental income somewhere else.

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:13 PMEsxile

Show Spoiler

At minimum schwerer would have to go, being able to plant your schwerer and then build cache under its protection would be problematic on map where you can already put your schwerer close to your base, protecting the cutoff and some of your mun/fuel/VP. Then their premium tanks would have to be toned down to non-premium level because their highest price and no-cache balance out their superior power out of the box. We already see how it goes on large teamgame and we don't want the same on small scale games. So Pz4 to be aligned to Ostheer's one and Panther pushed further back in a new tech level or even made doctrinal.

Vet5 should also go because and all benefices given with taken out. HMG34 and rak could also left the HQ and join OKW tiers, no reason anymore to have easy access to tools to maintain you field presence at cost of not being able to build caches.

And so on etc...

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:13 PMHannibal

Snip

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:13 PMEsxile

Show Spoiler

At minimum schwerer would have to go, being able to plant your schwerer and then build cache under its protection would be problematic on map where you can already put your schwerer close to your base, protecting the cutoff and some of your mun/fuel/VP. Then their premium tanks would have to be toned down to non-premium level because their highest price and no-cache balance out their superior power out of the box. We already see how it goes on large teamgame and we don't want the same on small scale games. So Pz4 to be aligned to Ostheer's one and Panther pushed further back in a new tech level or even made doctrinal.

Vet5 should also go because and all benefices given with taken out. HMG34 and rak could also left the HQ and join OKW tiers, no reason anymore to have easy access to tools to maintain you field presence at cost of not being able to build caches.

And so on etc...

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:12 PMPip

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There's nothing inherent in the faction that corresponds to their lack of Caches, in most cases Salvage is primarily a tool to delete team weapons and wrecks (Both of which are done equally well by other factions simply using an AT gun), not really one that provides more than an incredibly negligible amount of resources. If you'd like to argue they should lose Salvage in order to gain Caches, fine, though it's a bit of a petty thing to mandate.

...

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:20 PMpvtgooner

Thats weird because when I complain about the lack of rocket arty non doctrinally, im told i can rely on my Soviets Katy, which by your logic creates additional strain on teammates, inexplicably punish "all USF teams". If what I said isn't true, than its also not true for OKW caches. Faction A doesnt have x, Faction B has x, and therefore Faction A doesnt need x has always been the argument from balance team. Why would it suddenly change for OKW?

Its the same argument thats been around(and is totally faulty) for awhile. Give OKW caches and give factions missing tools the opportunity to use them non doctrinally. Or give no one caches non doc and put them behind commanders

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:20 PMpvtgooner

So if the fact theyre no longer resource starved is a nonsensical reason to not give someone caches, why the hell would it be a sensible argument to give them caches? Theyre no longer penalized so give them further increased performance? Because their default resource penalties would be greater evidence to give them supplemental income somewhere else.

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:35 PMPip

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What is the reasoning behind them still not having caches, from your perspective? Please, do enlighten us all.

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:32 PMpvtgooner

I'm curious, why in your mind is that a petty thing to mandate? The issue is OKW doesnt have caches right? But they do have another resource income ability that is a bit micro intensive but pretty useful, especially team games. Why should OKW be redesigned to have no resource penalties, given caches that breaks your favored asymmetric balance paradigm, while also keeping salvage? Just because you want it?

What I'm getting at is this game fosters these unproductive arguments around balance because the WFA were so poorly designed from the jump and because of this, you feel the need to protect your favorite mechanics or unique items instead of just saying "you know what we should all have caches because its a basic mechanic at the core of the game and that would also mean we shouldnt additional resource bonuses other factions do becuase its a basic mechanic at the core of the game."

You seem to understand the first part well, "we need this because its core game mechanic" but you're not understanding the second part so well, especially considering balance is a give and take, but youre not a huge fan of the take part.

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:38 PMpvtgooner

If you could actually comprehend the strange squiggles on your screen, you'd understand I support OKW getting caches like every other faction has because its a piss poor design decision. What I've been trying to show you is that broken logic extends to several other facets of balance that are affected by legacy relic stupidity and should be fixed. Just like massive holes in factions rosters for non doc units, leading to knock on balance problems.

But you can comprehend those strange squiggles so you wrote that long comment thinking it was a gotcha.