[Winter Balance Update] OKW Feedback

My point is that:
USF where designed to be about decision making do I want support weapons or light vehicles?
Soviet where about decision making, do I want tank or TD do I want infatry or support weapons?
UKF still have some choices that are being removed like do I build an AEC or bofors?

These decision making has been slowly been removed in the new environment it is seems "inevitable" or "necessary evil" for OKW to also have less impactful decision making.

This is completely unrelated and doesn't make sense in the slightest. How is any of this relevant to the OKW battlegroup healing.

My point is that:
USF where designed to be about decision making do I want support weapons or light vehicles?
Soviet where about decision making, do I want tank or TD do I want infatry or support weapons?
UKF still have some choices that are being removed like do I build an AEC or bofors?

These decision making has been slowly been removed in the new environment it is seems "inevitable" or "necessary evil" for OKW to also have less impactful decision making.

Because in practice it does not work and to work results in the need of having units that punch above their weight to justify limitations.

Especially if that "decision making" results in dead tier or multiple tiers as a result, as it was with soviets and USF.

Is it possible to take a look at the okw's t4 anti air ability? I don't suggest a massive buff. Sometimes it works okay and sometimes it can't shoot down a single plane for the whole time of it's aa mode.

The patch changes a lot about OKW vs Brit balance. AEC timing nerf, capping nerf (further delaying aec), valentine massively delayed, sturm schreck making the aec even worse, insane hetzer and ostwind timing, possibility of quick obers, free heal included in an already extremely powerful tech route

AEC timing nerf only helps Ostheer as UKF doesn't need a super-fast AEC against OKW anyway or do you built it to counter Kübelwagen?

Capping nerf is next to meaningless in anything but 1v1.

Valentine having a build time is a delay but nothing specific about the OKW/UKF match-up that I am complaining about. I don't see how this change fixes the entire OKW/UKF match-up.

The Hetzer and Ostwind timing is not insane you can get a Cromwell with the same timing.

Calling BG HQ "extremely powerful tech" is ridiculous and you know it.

As things stand, UKF will still walk all over OKW because there is simply no way to stop Infantry Sections backed up by UC, sniper and Vickers HMG. I don't want to comment about 1v1 but 2v2+ is MASSIVELY unbalanced on almost all maps and no one who is somewhat objective will claim otherwise.

The main problem as it is, is simply Volks not being able to do anything against Infantry Sections. This gets even worse when you add stuff like sniper which again OKW can't properly counter and UC which requires a Raketenwerfer which gives UKF an even bigger infantry advantage.

The Soviet vs OKW matchup is fine as it is anyway. It's USF and UKF that are too strong now compared to OKW and considering Soviets got more nerfs than buffs with the recent patch I don't see how this is going to change.

They finally need to do something to make OKW playable against UKF and reduce some of the over the top units USF has.

Also Ostheer has gotten so many buffs over the last couple of balance updates that there is really no point in playing OKW when Ostheer can do everything better including early game pressure with aggressive infantry which used to be OKW's main strength.

+1000
Thats exactly my opinion too. The UK vs OKW matchup is completely broken in the first minutes.
Its as bad as the OST vs Soviet match up.

AEC timing nerf only helps Ostheer as UKF doesn't need a super-fast AEC against OKW anyway or do you built it to counter Kübelwagen?

Capping nerf is next to meaningless in anything but 1v1.

Valentine having a build time is a delay but nothing specific about the OKW/UKF match-up that I am complaining about. I don't see how this change fixes the entire OKW/UKF match-up.

The Hetzer and Ostwind timing is not insane you can get a Cromwell with the same timing.

Calling BG HQ "extremely powerful tech" is ridiculous and you know it.

As things stand, UKF will still walk all over OKW because there is simply no way to stop Infantry Sections backed up by UC, sniper and Vickers HMG. I don't want to comment about 1v1 but 2v2+ is MASSIVELY unbalanced on almost all maps and no one who is somewhat objective will claim otherwise.

The main problem as it is, is simply Volks not being able to do anything against Infantry Sections. This gets even worse when you add stuff like sniper which again OKW can't properly counter and UC which requires a Raketenwerfer which gives UKF an even bigger infantry advantage.

This hits the nail on the head. The entire early game is always an uphill struggle against UKF in teamgames.

OKW

Tech issues.

1) Currently the tech issues are tied to trucks.

(Build truck unlock flame grenades
Setting up truck unlock ST,panzerfaust, HMG, G43, grenades
Panzer authorization unlock LMG/ST44IR/Fg42 (to be changed))

Imo building truck is not a good tech barrier since truck placement can be heavily depended on and play style, make some tech unenviable if truck is destroyed.

2) FRP point
Requires 2 truck and 300 manpower cost seem a bit high and could be lowered. Could even be become a package with reinforcement requiring a SwS truck being build not set up.


Suggestions:
Add a separate tech similar to either BP or a side tech. The tech cost could then be deducted by the truck cost.

Early game
Imo many of the issues of OKW start with power of their starting unit. ST can push most enemy off the field and it much of the games progress depends on how this unit will perform. If the SP beat enemy mainline infatry it can snowball if the SP is caught in red cover even a little time or step in hmg arc and has to retreat the OKW might find themselves in very difficult position.

Suggestions:
Tone down starting unit:
SP could start with 2 ST 2 MP40 and have cost reduced

ST is replaced by a VG, ST44 for VGs tech requirement removed,ST44 has 2 modes single fire and a timed "full Auto" with munition cost.

ST is replaced by a VG and OKW start with 45 muntion. In addition VG are redesign to upgrade with MP40s (with lower or no tech) or VG start with MP40 and 5 K98 (or 5 ST44 single shot) is an "upgrade" and ST44 become doctrinal. This design will keep the "offensive" design of OKW.


T0 Units:

Stutmpionner

Suggestions:
Stun grenade: locked behind 1 building SwS redesign as offensive (anti-garrison) grenade having extra damage vs garrison or heavy cover.

Experimental: Flame nade move to ST, VG get HE.

Kubel
The unit is mostly used for it capping capability but its build time is rather long at around 30 secs. Vet 1 ability detection is to powerful. Unit has 3/1.9 armor and tend to do 3 point turns.
Modifier for on road and off road speed are high.

Suggestions:
Reduce build time

Make detection a timed ability no cost required(this change should be made for other abilities also)

Increase rear armor. This unit can easily expose its rear armor without that being request by user so it should be less punishing. (this applies to other units also especially vehicles that passengers can not shoot out of them)

Remove the 3 point turn plan or greatly decrease turn radius like in AEgion mode.:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/106380/initial-vehicle-adjustment-ideas/page/1#post_id832651
(the suggestions apply to other micro light vehicles also)

Volkgrenadiers
Now get Faust at Building SwS or another tech requirement and not truck setup
Other suggestions see MP40 (stock),ST44 suggestions(dual firing option) above

The "destroy building" introduced this patch is a step in the wrong direction imo since it should not be available to mainline and might end destroying buildings one wants. Could be move to SP and their grenade if there is need for it.
(How does this work exactly one has to hit the building with 4 grenades simultaneously? because when I tested singe grenade the building did not catch fire, if it requires 4 VG and 120 mu in rather pointless)



Rakketenwerfer
The units camo is working differently than other ATG camo and in very non player friendly way, I suspect most people do not even use it until the unit is vet 3. If the ability is used the unit stop but "remembers" attack move orders and will start moving if it become visible.

Unit does not have good vet bonuses, unit is not very useful in garrison although it give up camo.

The times before units fires are very high

Suggestions:

Unit can be lock behind track set up (if faust comes earlier).

Change to camo:
Either a automatic passive ability if the unit does not move that "breaks" when it moves (not when it rotates) or to work similar to M-42/Zis and able to move at reduced speed

Reduce "pre fire" times. (fire aim times?)

Reduce base stat but increase vet bonuses. Add vet bonus specifically for garrison like increases sight, increases range, increased change of side.

Experimental, allow unit to "Camo" in garrison. In the cases of a trench allow trench to "camo"also.

HMG34
Reduce reinforcement cost to 20 (HMG-42 has 22)

Is it possible to take a look at the okw's t4 anti air ability? I don't suggest a massive buff. Sometimes it works okay and sometimes it can't shoot down a single plane for the whole time of it's aa mode.

Maybe buff it to a reliable level and add a small munitions cost? Since it's free currently I don't see a way to make it noticeably better without it being OP.

OKW
[...]
Early game
Imo many of the issues of OKW start with power of their starting unit. ST can push most enemy off the field and it much of the games progress depends on how this unit will perform. If the SP beat enemy mainline infatry it can snowball if the SP is caught in red cover even a little time or step in hmg arc and has to retreat the OKW might find themselves in very difficult position.

Suggestions:
Tone down starting unit:
SP could start with 2 ST 2 MP40 and have cost reduced

[...]

Volkgrenadiers
Now get Faust at Building SwS or another tech requirement and not truck setup
Other suggestions see MP40 (stock),ST44 suggestions(dual firing option) above

I agree. The first 5 minutes are really important for OKW and you have to get the most out of Spios. Thats doable vs soviets until flamer arrives, 40/60 against Usf and almost impossible vs sections and uc. On the other side allied factions (mostly soviets) have to play cautious, cause of spios powerful combat strength.

Maybe its possible to try to remove (2 or 4) mp44 from spios at the start and give them a muni/free upgrade after the first building is built. On the other side the cost could go down from 300 to something like 260. That could help the diversity of okw builds and the match-up for soviets. Maybe you have to adjust the starting manpower of okw, idk.

On the other side volks are completly worthless vs sections all game long, struggle vs riflemen and have a slight advantage over cons (atleast until 7men). The stg upgrade comes too early, does nothing after 10 mins and is completely boring. And their vet is underwhelming too (vet 4 is the most useless shit i have ever seen). The mp40 upgrade on the other side is a clear and interesting weapon upgrade. Removing stgs and making mp40 stock (maybe volks need better rec. acc) ould make okw more fun to play with and against.

Atleast we could try some things with this mod. If it doesnt work or is too good/bad, there is still the opportunity to remove it. But botching the tech tree until there is a new cheesy, competitive way to play okw (techless command p5, Tiger stall in the past and now hetzer rush) is not the way to balance okw imo.

Edit:
And about the leig. I really like smoke, but could this unit get a significant combat bonus before vet 4? Cause the only thing it gets until then is smoke range and barrage cd. maybe swap vet 2 with vet 4 or 5.

I agree...

Nice to see that you agree. Any comments on a redesigned MP44 for VG?

It could work with "carbine profile" in semi auto mode and with elite Thompson profile (good close to mid DPS) (adjusted to cost and timing of coarse) in the full auto mode.

Nice to see that you agree. Any comments on a redesigned MP44 for VG?

It could work with "carbine profile" in semi auto mode and with elite Thompson profile (good close to mid DPS) (adjusted to cost and timing of coarse) in the full auto mode.

If you balance volks with stgs around midrange performance, they have to compete/ get compared to bar riflemen. And i dont think you can adjust that without powercreeping them vs soviets and maybe brits. I dont think current soviets could deal with okw if you swap volks with riflemen. And the other solution with thompson is a straight better mp40 upgrade, isnt it? But maybe i misunderstood you.

I think its easier to give them a clear close range upgrade, that gives them the opportunity to beat other squads short range, while synergising with long range obers late game. Maybe giving them a k98 upgrade through vet (5; nothing major, shouldnt beat upgraded sections ofc!), so you can decide against the mp40 upgrade and still have some decent long range dmg in the lategame (similar to old enfield upgrade).

But at the end it doesnt matter what exactly you do with volks (or penals, same story). Just try some things. Thats a mod for imo. Trying out things and testing them. And not just adding cheese tactis, that dont help factions overall.

... But maybe i misunderstood you...

Maybe I was not clear enough.

The idea is the ST 44 for VG use semi auto mod. So there default mod use a profile that is similar to M1 garrand.

How ever they have the option to use "full auto" mode (could even be locked behind tech and/or upgrade). In this mode they work closer to ST ST44.The catch here is that "full auto" mode is not an always on mode but is restricted either as timed with MU cost attached or with no MU cost but long CD so one has to be make wise use of the ability.

This design can be used to keep VG performance average but able to be boosted to good but for a limited time.

The design can work regardless if the ST44 is stock or doctrinal.

Although i see where this idea is coming from i think making stg doctrinal is a bad choice. Having to wait for defensive infantry till obers come out is too long.
MP40 is good, but volks will bleed hard when engaging.
An even further delayed MG34 makes it even harder for volks to stand their ground.


I will wait till the next pre-patch update and see where this is going to. only thing okw wise i would be complaining right would be the Flamehetzer timing. I think i could be delayed by maybe 1 or 2 minutes. Teamgames might be memeing hard with it. Though, Ostwind is well aligned as far as i noticed.
second is the delayed MG34 which gets compensated by better healing when deciding for medtruck. Might just be me who is used to get it a little earlier and having no alternative choice till it can be produced

Because in practice it does not work and to work results in the need of having units that punch above their weight to justify limitations.

Especially if that "decision making" results in dead tier or multiple tiers as a result, as it was with soviets and USF.

off topic but i think the soviet still coulda worked as split late tier teching. a lot of the problem lay in the fact that one tier was 2/3 tds and then rocket arty and the other left you completely incapable of fighting a vetted p4. the issue wasnt necessarily the design but the layout.

off topic but i think the soviet still coulda worked as split late tier teching. a lot of the problem lay in the fact that one tier was 2/3 tds and then rocket arty and the other left you completely incapable of fighting a vetted p4. the issue wasnt necessarily the design but the layout.

When you give limited choices, those choices have to be stronger compared to factions which gets access to a variety of them.

And this design only held, when vehicles call ins were a thing.

Although i see where this idea is coming from i think making stg doctrinal is a bad choice. Having to wait for defensive infantry till obers come out is too long.
MP40 is good, but volks will bleed hard when engaging.
An even further delayed MG34 makes it even harder for volks to stand their ground.

I would straight up remove the stg upgrade and bundle spio flamer with obers stg.
About volks:
Yeah i think they need a better recieved accuracy modifier then. At the moment they have 1 vet 0 and 0,77 vet 5 and as far as i know they get 0,10 with the mp40 upgrade. Without the stg upgrade you can give them better rec. acc. through vet, then you can remove the 0,10 from the weapon upgrade. If you nerf spio at the same time, you can give them 0,95 or 0,90 at vet 0 and get that to ~0,60-0,55 at the end. Then volks are similar to cons. Low dmg, but good survivability, in contrast to obers and grens, who are high dmg, but low(er) survivability.

How do Sturmpioneer StG44 and Stormtrooper MP40 compare? Since they're technically the same unit IRL, if the Stormtrooper MP40 is weaker than the StG44 the Sturmpioneers could get 4x Stormtrooper MP40s.

snip

Is the OKW vs UKF issue because volks are underperforming or that IS are overperforming? Or is a bit of both. I haven't played much recently so I cant speak from experience.

How do Sturmpioneer StG44 and Stormtrooper MP40 compare? Since they're technically the same unit IRL, if the Stormtrooper MP40 is weaker than the StG44 the Sturmpioneers could get 4x Stormtrooper MP40s.

Sturmpioneers

Damage 5
Accuracy near 0.621
Accuracy mid 0.506
Accuracy far 0.403
Range near 3
Range mid 15
Range far 28
Range0 - 35

Rate of fire near 10
Rate of fire mid 10
Rate of fire far 10

Stormtrooper MP40

Damage 5
Accuracy near 0.81
Accuracy mid 0.485
Accuracy far 0.197
Range near 10
Range mid 17
Range far 30
Rate of fire near 8
Rate of fire mid 6
Rate of fire far 1

Sturmpioneer StG44 is better at mid to long range, but Stormtrooper MP40 is far better at range 10 the mp40 are at maximum firepower unlike SP STG-44 that needs to be at range 3.

Sturmpioneers

Damage 5
Accuracy near 0.621
Accuracy mid 0.506
Accuracy far 0.403
Range near 3
Range mid 15
Range far 28
Range0 - 35

Rate of fire near 10
Rate of fire mid 10
Rate of fire far 10

Stormtrooper MP40

Damage 5
Accuracy near 0.81
Accuracy mid 0.485
Accuracy far 0.197
Range near 10
Range mid 17
Range far 30
Rate of fire near 8
Rate of fire mid 6
Rate of fire far 1

Sturmpioneer StG44 is better at mid to long range, but Stormtrooper MP40 is far better at range 10 the mp40 are at maximum firepower unlike SP STG-44 that needs to be at range 3.

What do you think of dropping the StGs from Sturmpioneers and giving the StG-focused upgrades to Volks or other infantry?