[Winter Balance Update] UKF Feedback

Cromwell is a decent tank. Low profile and constant moving = hard to chase and hit. Decent enough AI power and a normal AT gun for flanking + smoke. Don't underestimate cheap medium tanks. Both sherman and cromwell, while being weaker than the axis counterparts in the raw performance, they more than make up for in other areas

Cromwell no long has a profile advantage after last patch. The patch team gave it mediocre MGs to make up for that. It can't outpace a Blitz, so if it gets low, it gets dove. Its only real advantage is self spotting with the tank commander.

Sherman is a totally different story, the HE on the Sherman is just ludicrously effective. Its a worthy tank.

My point is, I do see the reasoning for a change, I just don't believe benefits outweight or even balance out downsides.

Well I agree UKF's early game gets hit pretty hard by the changes compared to other factions, namely to their workhorse units Sections and AEC, but this would go a good way to compensating that. Ideally if the compensations are done well and prevent the nerfs from killing the Brits their early game, it would result in less reliance on Sections and AEC and open up less linear build orders.

I also feel the whole bolster / weapon racks / squad upgrades thing could be made into more interesting decisions and dislike straight cost increases on those, because Sections are already loaded with expensive investments.

There's a possibility that by doing this you would encourage more 4-section openings, which is the opposite of what most people would like to see.

Well, you would be able to go 3 Sections - UC - Sappers - Platoon Command instead of 3 Sections - UC - Platoon Command - Sappers, which makes up for a small fuel cost in some ways while keeping the window slightly longer for opponent where there's no AEC to back it up.

With Royal Engineers having a capping bonus at the moment, what do people think about putting them in T0?

Possibly in combination with reverting the AEC build time increase, moving medics, and giving the UC a ~10 fuel cost. And gating the destroy cover ability behind a unit upgrade or tech.

These changes may increase build diversity (think early capping power and doctrinal flamers), while also making the 222 less mandatory to counter the UC (as the UC would now delay tech) and in turn (with RE on the field) making the AEC less mandatory to counter a 222.


So for example changes could be roughly:

- (Royal Engineers now have 1.25 capture rate)
- Royal Engineers moved to T0
- Blow up cover ability locked behind T1
- Medic Squad moved to T1. This way going for early doctrinal flamers (potentially strong) would lock you out of early healing on Infantry Sections
- Possibly 5-10 fuel cost added to UC
- Possibly revert AEC build time increase

This look promising but need and can use some more teak.
- Sapper can have their weapon change to rifles (Close to CE rifles). Platoon CP will then have an upgrade for 25/45 muni that change back to sten and unlock destroy cover. The upgrade cost i suggest depends on how powerful are the sten. Heavy gammon bomb can be move to sapper via this upgrade. I will call this "Close support Sapoer", exclusive with "Heavy Engineer". With rifle as stating weapons, heavy engineer can benefit from a better weapon profile overall => diverse.
- If UC have a 10 fuels cost, you can let it capture point, at least pre-upgrade. This contribute to solving the map control issue => diverse, at the same time prevent spamming UC.

Further more on top of the changes i suggest above (sapper with rifles), sapper can be made to that they nolonger benefit from bolster, but instead gain the 5th man via the sten upgrade or heavy engineer upgrade. This can lowered the overall effectiveness of bolster since it only affect section, at the same time player can have an other way to get 5man infantry beside bolster => diverse.

sapper can event become starting unit (with changes)

Cromwell is a decent tank. Low profile and constant moving = hard to chase and hit. Decent enough AI power and a normal AT gun for flanking + smoke. Don't underestimate cheap medium tanks. Both sherman and cromwell, while being weaker than the axis counterparts in the raw performance, they more than make up for in other areas

Low profile? It's the same target size as the p4, it has the weakest Ai out of any stock medium tank, and has similar At capability of the Sherman.
So all it has is speed, and with nothing backing it up, that's pretty terrible since it does get the on the move accuracy the sherman gets.

Low profile? It's the same target size as the p4, it has the weakest Ai out of any stock medium tank, and has similar At capability of the Sherman.
So all it has is speed, and with nothing backing it up, that's pretty terrible since it does get the on the move accuracy the sherman gets.

how so? the cromwell's main gun ai performance is superior to the majority of the medium tank roster, and with the recent buff to its hull/coaxial mgs it shouldn't be far behind in that department, either.

how so? the cromwell's main gun ai performance is superior to the majority of the medium tank roster, and with the recent buff to its hull/coaxial mgs it shouldn't be far behind in that department, either.

So, I went and checked the AoE profile of the Crommy. She is .25, 1, 1.5 AoE radius vs the .75, 1.25, 1.875 of the P4 gun. The P4 has NINE TIMES the OHK area of the Crommy. Not counting RoF or accuracy, Crommy feels worse because she doesnt KILL anything, just softens them up. HP damage can be healed for free by all factions.

I did the math a while back. Crommy has GREAT theoretical AI damage, but one of the smallest OHK radius of any medium tank. Feels bad. HE Sherman has .50 for close, 1.25 for far and feels deadly. Crommy... just feels bad.

Also, she has weird Pen scaling for her job. She has high close pen, and crap far pen (105) yet she's designed for high speed sniping (diving germans means a broken engine, EVERYTHING HAS A SNARE). ALSO, she is .3 faster than a P4, but thats BEFORE Blitz, so the P4 is faster in a pinch. And she has 50% lower Accuracy on move, so she has to be stutter steped to ACTUALLY USE her speed.

Her MGs were normalized to the P4 before Pintle. All P4s get pintle, which is another 50% non-directional AI. And that means you need to hug snare infantry.

She still loses to a P4 even with Commander accuracy (bad ranged pen, 160 armor)

All for a little less fuel and the same pop cost. I need to check teching, but assuming AEC and Bolster, P4 should time about the same as Crommy. Why buy something worse than a near peer unless you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. Comet is an actually efficient generalist, which is why its so used.

In 3v3 and 4v4, she just dies to the gatunteed Panther spam, with no pen and no mobility advantage.

Changes: copy gun AoE of Sherman (or at least .35 close range), and keep the Hunt skill. Make Hunt as cheap as Blitz.

If these changes are too much, drop her to 11 pop, she is a budget P4 and should be priced accordingly.

It's commendable you went through the trouble calculating stats and bringing up your concerns, but 80 damage radius is already calculated for you on: coh2db.com (or serealia), which shows 0.88 for Cromwell and 1.13 for P4. Also your speed values are off and don't consider further speed bonusses Cromwell can get with warspeed and veterancy.

I do feel something for 11 pop Cromwell, considering its performance is a bit better overall than a 10 pop T34/76 but lower than a 12 pop Sherman or P4.

how so? the cromwell's main gun ai performance is superior to the majority of the medium tank roster, and with the recent buff to its hull/coaxial mgs it shouldn't be far behind in that department, either.

Sherman, PzIV and T34/76 all kill infantry way better.

PZIV has the biggest 80dmg kill radius with maingun
T34/76 falls short of that, is very close to PZIV and has better MG to make up for that
Sherman has HE-shells

Cromwell has nothing of that AI power, its 80dmg kill radius is tiny, compared to all three of them. Your best chance is to run over infantry.


Lets just not talk about AT power. It only has speed, but it doesn't kill or penetrate a thing. Cromwell is really the worst of all medium stock tanks.

I do feel something for 11 pop Cromwell, considering its performance is a bit better overall than a 10 pop T34/76 but lower than a 12 pop Sherman or P4.

Why more than a T34/76? That thing is better at killing infantry, has ram (at least up to now, lets wait for the patch) and can cap points with Vet1. A T34/76 is more useful than a Cromwell. The only useful thing about the Cromwell is its smoke shot, but you can do that with other units (upgraded Tommies for instant).

Why more than a T34/76? That thing is better at killing infantry, has ram (at least up to now, lets wait for the patch) and can cap points with Vet1. A T34/76 is more useful than a Cromwell. The only useful thing about the Cromwell is its smoke shot, but you can do that with other units (upgraded Tommies for instant).

Main thing here is the T34/76's hull mgs. Cost and doctrinal ram synergy shouldn't be taken into consideration when determining pop value.

There's enough benefits for the Cromwell to justify it having a higher pop than a T34/76, even if its AI is worse cause of its shitty mgs:

20% more penetration on average
-4.7% reload time
35.7% faster horizontal tracking
6.7% more armor
7.7% more speed
12.5% faster rotation
13% more acceleration
10% more main gun accuracy with tank commander
28.6% more sight with tank commander

Smoke shell
Hunt ability next patch
Warspeed with Hammer

And while it has worse 80 damage radius, coh2db gives it an AoE score of 6.7 compared to 5.59 for T34, probably caused by the much better far AoE damage. Run simulations with this https://www.coh2.org/topic/105279/scatter-this-your-trusty-scatter-calculator if you want to find out how big a performance difference that leads to for main gun against infantry.

It's commendable you went through the trouble calculating stats and bringing up your concerns, but 80 damage radius is already calculated for you on: coh2db.com (or serealia), which shows 0.88 for Cromwell and 1.13 for P4. Also your speed values are off and don't consider further speed bonusses Cromwell can get with warspeed and veterancy.

I do feel something for 11 pop Cromwell, considering its performance is a bit better overall than a 10 pop T34/76 but lower than a 12 pop Sherman or P4.

P4 is 1.85 times the OHK area in open field, still 9 times against bunched targets in green cover. OHK matters MUCH more than health as one drains resources and time, while the other just time. (And the MGs still suck)

Also, the speed advantage only arrives at Vet 3. Good luck getting a Chrommy to Vet 3, she loses armor fights and comes after AEC, so there are no LV to fight. Blitz adds 60% accel and 30% speed, totally dwarfing the Chrommy for 15 seconds for 30 munis.

Ive got a whole rant on how most of the UKF units are over priced popwise, as they are problematically overspecialized (IS are a major symptom).

An easy change is T0 RE, which would provide at least some other path than IS spam backed by a bren carrier, a MUCH more interesting start. (What Sanders said).

UKF MG doesnt have the suppression to pin standard OKW 4 volks opening and loses meaning when sniper/Obers/PGs are fielded (did you know PGs can charge straight at Vickers through yellow cover and bundle it?). The new MG formation, MG reload, and ability will help enable MG openings. We'll see.

If Ro.E is moved to T0 they can be the starting unit, too, so UKF will stat with an engineer squad like all other faction.

A change to a rifle with CE performance will be preferable, and more realistic.

Yes I hope to see cromwell at 10 popcap and t3476 get a bit cheaper in mp and fuel.

Main thing here is the T34/76's hull mgs. Cost and doctrinal ram synergy shouldn't be taken into consideration when determining pop value.

There's enough benefits for the Cromwell to justify it having a higher pop than a T34/76, even if its AI is worse cause of its shitty mgs:

20% more penetration on average
-4.7% reload time
35.7% faster horizontal tracking
6.7% more armor
7.7% more speed
12.5% faster rotation
13% more acceleration
10% more main gun accuracy with tank commander
28.6% more sight with tank commander

Smoke shell
Hunt ability next patch
Warspeed with Hammer

And while it has worse 80 damage radius, coh2db gives it an AoE score of 6.7 compared to 5.59 for T34, probably caused by the much better far AoE damage. Run simulations with this https://www.coh2.org/topic/105279/scatter-this-your-trusty-scatter-calculator if you want to find out how big a performance difference that leads to for main gun against infantry.

As we both know, far accuracy and pen are worth MUCH MUCH more than anything else. Which is where Chrommy is bad. And REALLY hurts its fighting ability agaisnt Panthers and Tigers. It kinda... just... bounces about 70% of the time. The REALLY BAD rear armor of Axis heavies is the only blessing. Good luck with that against anyone not suicidal, Panthers have 55 range and pretty good accuracy (when not moving).

Chrommy also gets marginal AT buffs vs other tanks with veterance, instead getting... smoke recharge rate and some reload rate, and that iconic speed which doesnt let it upfight or take a hit. Lets it scram after eating a Panther round. Also its 2000 more exp than a T-34, with effectively the same veterency. its uncanny, like Relic just copied them.


Otherwise, yea. Its a lot better than the T-34 vs tanks, though not a high standard. She could do with some reduced received accuracy or something in the Vet tree.

As we both know, far accuracy and pen are worth MUCH MUCH more than anything else. Which is where Chrommy is bad.

How is the Cromwell bad in these areas? It has the best stationary accuracy of any medium tank because of the tank commander and it has better far penetration than the Sherman and the T-34/76.

I also have no idea why you would judge it based on an engagement with a Panther or a Tiger, tanks that are supposed to eat mediums for breakfast and that the Sherman and T-34/76 lose even harder to.

The Panther has 50 range, by the way.

How is the Cromwell bad in these areas? It has the best stationary accuracy of any medium tank because of the tank commander and it has better far penetration than the Sherman and the T-34/76.

I also have no idea why you would judge it based on an engagement with a Panther or a Tiger, tanks that are supposed to eat mediums for breakfast and that the Sherman and T-34/76 lose even harder to.

The Panther has 50 range, by the way.

I mostly play in 3v3 and 4v4. Generally that means Allies spend all game preping for the Panthers and everything is just a prelude for then.

As such, Crommy is obsolete in late game.

Also, Crommy does have more far pen than the Sherman.... by 5, but the American Classic can swap to the HE death blaster and has 75% moving accuracy, really nice for those who dont have the APM to stutter stepor hold fire till stationary. Sherman is also cheaper in every way, with potentially superior smoke and radio net thrown in for fun. The T34 has miserable pen, but is priced accordingly (only 10 pop) and has the problematic ram. Crommy has great accuracy.Just stand reeeeeal still. On your high speed tank. Better not get shot back by the tank with equal range, better pen, better veterancy, better surivability

She's just expensive for what she does. Shes THE SAME COST as a P4 (not at my computer, is she still 120 fuel? I swear she got a price cut.), just worse in every way except for mild speed, accuracy and spotting (for muns). Just... feels bad.

Im just sad about a cool unit I cant justify and never see.

Hunt is a REALLY NICE step towards Crommy actually doings her job, thanks Sanders.

I mostly play in 3v3 and 4v4. Generally that means Allies spend all game preping for the Panthers and everything is just a prelude for then.

When I play 4v4 axis, my panther is built to counter allies heavy armor or meme medium spam.
Otherwise I rather get ostwind or brumbar first.

I don't see why allies need to 'prepare' for panthers these days. Just get your jackson or su85 to counter the brumbar or p4 and they work as well against panthers