[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

Assaulting a mg from the front without being supressed is bleeding the attacker out. Thats why maxim spam is still to be seen in bigger matches i guess

Edit:
I dont think maxim needs to be changed atm

People dont get maxims for bleed, imo they dont supprrss and bleed wel enough.

They get more maxims then mg 42's because you need more maxim to get reliable suppression. Basicly you always need 1 more, and axis will always see it as spam.

At least sustained fire is going vet 0, still needing a ability that other mg's dont need to do good suppression is not ideal.

SU-76 not having access to the doctrinal tank hunter ambush is silly.

Have it start with it and replace it with vet 1 ability at vet 1.

(if that is not possible have it start with vet 1 ability from vet 0)

Assaulting a mg from the front without being supressed is bleeding the attacker out. Thats why maxim spam is still to be seen in bigger matches i guess

Edit:
I dont think maxim needs to be changed atm

what a load of nonsense... people buy machineguns to suppress infantry not to "bleed out" the opponent

Could attach the mobilize reserves to this middle tech to help iron out the timing.

This would be definitely an option.

Suppression definitely needs an increase. It is quite pathetic that squads can just stroll in and out of the arc.

I do find it even more disturbing that a single grenadier squad can move in frontally and get its rifle grenade off. Same for squads with sprint but less ranged grenades. No single squad should be able to nade any MG frontally without camouflage or smoke.

They get more maxims then mg 42's because you need more maxim to get reliable suppression. Basicly you always need 1 more, and axis will always see it as spam.

3 Maxims >>> OKW early game

Very hard to see the need for maxim buffs when this keeps happening

3 Maxims >>> OKW early game

Very hard to see the need for maxim buffs when this keeps happening

I would question that. To be somehow effective with maxims and not get overhelmed by flanks you have to keep them together. So you are loosing a lot of map control.

A combo of Sturmpioneers and Kubels does well vs maxims which will get outmanoeuvred.

I would question that. To be somehow effective with maxims and not get overhelmed by flanks you have to keep them together. So you are loosing a lot of map control.

A combo of Sturmpioneers and Kubels does well vs maxims which will get outmanoeuvred.

I think we may be thinking about different game modes in which case nvm.

Speaking from 3v3+, there are many lane-y maps such as Redball, Across the Rhine (not Ettelbruck surprisingly), Arnhem where flanks are simply impractical/easy to stop. With three Maxims, you can have one covering the flank and 2 for the front, resulting in a practically uncrackable defence before ISGs arrive. Ostheer ally mortars can be matched with teammate mortars and heaven help you if they have a Sniper in all of this.

This doesn't take into account the teammate getting an MG either.

3 Maxims >>> OKW early game

Very hard to see the need for maxim buffs when this keeps happening

3 vickers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 maxims... i dont get the obsession against the maxim when literally every other machinegun is better than a maxim...

3 vickers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 maxims... i dont get the obsession against the maxim when literally every other machinegun is better than a maxim...

Well UKF vs OKW early game is a meme
But I'll stop going off-topic here.

Well UKF vs OKW early game is a meme
But I'll stop going off-topic here.

maybe the answer here isnt to keep the maxim shit but to give OKW some better early solutions vs machineguns? the vickers and the 50 already punish the faction hard enough...

3 Maxims >>> OKW early game

Very hard to see the need for maxim buffs when this keeps happening

Wait, that was serious? Are you seriously worried about SOV player going 3 Maxims? Going for the worst MG in the game? Do you really think it's a balance problem? You are talking about 3v3 but in 3v3 leigs can come close to the time the third maxim is in the position. And you can also use Leigs for smoke if you are too worried of enemy counter arty...

Wait, that was serious? Are you seriously worried about SOV player going 3 Maxims? Going for the worst MG in the game? Do you really think it's a balance problem? You are talking about 3v3 but in 3v3 leigs can come close to the time the third maxim is in the position. And you can also use Leigs for smoke if you are too worried of enemy counter arty...

It’s deeply predictable and about as fun to play against as bashing your head against a brick wall. Because that’s all you can do before ISGs and barrages can y’know be walked out of. Meanwhile you have no fuel and they are rushing T-70. Is it counterable? Sure if you’re decent or better. Do I want to play against this nonsense? Not after the 100th time.

Your timing is off. Volks volks volks HQ truck Setting up BG (which takes a long time) thennnnn ISG and you must wheel it.
Vs.
T2 (fast build) Maxim maxim maxim

Note I did not call for -nerfs- to Maxim, but buffing it without careful thinking will only incentivize this opener. 50 cal’s getting a nerf next patch and Vickers is Vickers.

I think we may be thinking about different game modes in which case nvm.
Speaking from 3v3+, there are many lane-y maps such as Redball, Across the Rhine...

So we agree about 1vs1. Good.

Speaking about 3v3 there are two important aspects we shouldn't miss.

1. You have already taken the mid, including green cover spots and sandbags. If he goes for 3 maxims he maybe won't even build cons to get third maxim earlier. This means the moment he arrives with engineers and his first maxim you have already 2 units positioned in mid plus the third unit arriving at that very moment. At Redball this means you have the building at lower right + green cover for example.

2. Most allied players won't play very defensive, especially USF can't do that. So if you have a maxim lane player and can't manage it, just help out a teammate and double up another opponent. If the maxim player doesn't react and gives up his one lane block this won't play out very well for their team. If you push through the mid for example you can take maxim player from front and back. This is no difference to running into Ostheer multiple MG42 in one lane. Don't try to take it from the front unless you have a lot of smoke or indirect fire.

It’s deeply predictable and about as fun to play against as bashing your head against a brick wall. Because that’s all you can do before ISGs and barrages can y’know be walked out of. Meanwhile you have no fuel and they are rushing T-70. Is it counterable? Sure if you’re decent or better. Do I want to play against this nonsense? Not after the 100th time.

Your timing is off. Volks volks volks HQ truck Setting up BG (which takes a long time) thennnnn ISG and you must wheel it.
Vs.
T2 (fast build) Maxim maxim maxim

Note I did not call for -nerfs- to Maxim, but buffing it without careful thinking will only incentivize this opener. 50 cal’s getting a nerf next patch and Vickers is Vickers.

If you don't veto lany maps and expect a fun game then I have bad news. And every faction has this crappy playstyle but there's no point discussing it since the game isn't going to change. Teamgames are a coinflip between WW1 arty simulator and WW1 blobbing simulator (most of the time). I agree that this is a shitty way to play the game but shouldn't we bring it up when discussing the balance. Especially since OST and UKF can build 3 mgs without even teching but you don't see people complain about that balance-wise.

I think we may be thinking about different game modes in which case nvm.

Speaking from 3v3+, there are many lane-y maps such as Redball, Across the Rhine (not Ettelbruck surprisingly), Arnhem where flanks are simply impractical/easy to stop. With three Maxims, you can have one covering the flank and 2 for the front, resulting in a practically uncrackable defence before ISGs arrive. Ostheer ally mortars can be matched with teammate mortars and heaven help you if they have a Sniper in all of this.

This doesn't take into account the teammate getting an MG either.

While I agree, same thing could be said about other MGs. T0 MG42 can lock out good parts of Across the rheine (one, not 3 like maxims). I don't remember if I've ever played Rheine against anything else but 2x pio 2x MG42. Really strong positions that map has. 3v3, anything is viable TBH. Never seen a tactic, from Rear echelon spam, over Combat engies spam, over sturmpio spam all the way to maxim spam that didn't work out at least once, especially if it captures you by surprise. 1v1 maxim is useless to spam.
All in all, I'd rather see penals get the rework needed to be AI that can upgrade into 3x PTSR for some late game AT power. Maxim is fine, considering which faction it is in. Maybe a bit lower setup time. Nothing too much,

While I agree, same thing could be said about other MGs. T0 MG42 can lock out good parts of Across the rheine (one, not 3 like maxims)......

......Especially since OST and UKF can build 3 mgs without even teching but you don't see people complain about that balance-wise.

I'll answer you both at the same time as it's the same theme. UKF early game I've complained about aplenty, so we'll see how the nerfs to their early game change things.

Ost MG42 is part of a larger problem imho where the MG42 is too good, but has to be because grens are a weak unit. So ppl will try to spam them out in that 2xpio, 2xmg42 build. 3 x mg42 + mortars is very obnoxious to play against, esp if they have an OKW teammate who'll just outman your ass.

So we agree about 1vs1. Good.

Speaking about 3v3 there are two important aspects we shouldn't miss.

1. You have already taken the mid, including green cover spots and sandbags. If he goes for 3 maxims he maybe won't even build cons to get third maxim earlier. This means the moment he arrives with engineers and his first maxim you have already 2 units positioned in mid plus the third unit arriving at that very moment. At Redball this means you have the building at lower right + green cover for example.

2. Most allied players won't play very defensive, especially USF can't do that. So if you have a maxim lane player and can't manage it, just help out a teammate and double up another opponent. If the maxim player doesn't react and gives up his one lane block this won't play out very well for their team. If you push through the mid for example you can take maxim player from front and back. This is no difference to running into Ostheer multiple MG42 in one lane. Don't try to take it from the front unless you have a lot of smoke or indirect fire.

1. I even have volks behind sandbags (serious) on the fuel but really it's very easy to outshoot someone who's out of range to shoot back and sandbags aren't perfect cover very often (leading to that one man to be suppressed and they can walk up to you with a flame engineer or cons).

2. You're assuming they aren't of comparable skill and with a plan in mind & options to deal with contingencies. The flank is already covered by a maxim or a teammate MG and often mined too. Sweeper SP can't be everywhere.

Like I said earlier, it IS counterable but it's absolutely mind numbing to play against, nvm the 'skill' required to counter this is astronomically higher than the requirement to play it. I have countered it many times, even decrewing 4 mgs as part of a coordinated push with a lane partner. The game doesn't need more incentives for this kinda playstyle.


PS: And yes Gbem is right, OKW's anti-MG tools are rather lacking. Hence Feuersturm shows up so much for that smoke on the mainline which would be OP normally.

I'll answer you both at the same time as it's the same theme. UKF early game I've complained about aplenty, so we'll see how the nerfs to their early game change things.

Ost MG42 is part of a larger problem imho where the MG42 is too good, but has to be because grens are a weak unit. So ppl will try to spam them out in that 2xpio, 2xmg42 build. 3 x mg42 + mortars is very obnoxious to play against, esp if they have an OKW teammate who'll just outman your ass.



1. I even have volks behind sandbags (serious) on the fuel but really it's very easy to outshoot someone who's out of range to shoot back and sandbags aren't perfect cover very often (leading to that one man to be suppressed and they can walk up to you with a flame engineer or cons).

2. You're assuming they aren't of comparable skill and with a plan in mind & options to deal with contingencies. The flank is already covered by a maxim or a teammate MG and often mined too. Sweeper SP can't be everywhere.

Like I said earlier, it IS counterable but it's absolutely mind numbing to play against, nvm the 'skill' required to counter this is astronomically higher than the requirement to play it. I have countered it many times, even decrewing 4 mgs as part of a coordinated push with a lane partner. The game doesn't need more incentives for this kinda playstyle.


PS: And yes Gbem is right, OKW's anti-MG tools are rather lacking. Hence Feuersturm shows up so much for that smoke on the mainline which would be OP normally.

I think both things could have been adjusted with one change: Stock mp40 on volks. The upgrade has a clear dps curve. You can beat rifle, is and cons close range. With the stgs you have a narrow window, where you can beat unupgraded squads midrange. After that they are running meatshields who can snare. On the other side the smoke gives okw a stock (beside leig in bg) unit, which can help vs mg (spam). You have to adjust mp40 smoke probably (longer cd), but i think this would give volks more flavor.

.

Ost MG42 is part of a larger problem imho where the MG42 is too good, but has to be because grens are a weak unit.

Gonna be honest, when I'm using grens they feel like the deadliest inf on the field. The lmg is an accessible upgrade and the rifle nade racks up the kill numbers.

They feel great when whittling down a defensive position at long range in a pincer movement. They're great at scouting out far corners of the map solo because they'll usually handle whatever other scout they find.

They are high damage glass cannons. They are not weak at all.

Ost MG42 is part of a larger problem imho where the MG42 is too good, but has to be because grens are a weak unit. So ppl will try to spam them out in that 2xpio, 2xmg42 build. 3 x mg42 + mortars is very obnoxious to play against, esp if they have an OKW teammate who'll just outman your ass.

I'm not complaining about MG42. In my view, it's fine. I wouldn't call grens a weak unit. Not a survivable one, that's for sure. They scale quite well and their one weak point is the close range firepower. Upgraded or not, they have high damage (16) rifles with high accuracy for long range, which fits well into the faction. Grens will always win long range, and their long range nade doubles down on it. Compared to conscripts, who's whole thing is to be behind cover and have large numbers, I'd say it's balanced, considering that's the soviet shtuck.

One thing that is good about conscripts late game is the 7th man upgrade. Comparing to grens, which are 4 man unless a doctrine is chosen, people deem it OP. But one has to understand that at the point where the 7th man comes online, katys, werfers, stukas and other obnoxious things are fielded. Now a katy will never wipe grens in a single salvo unless super unlucky, whereas a werfer likes larger squads, or stuka. So in the end, you can't use grens like you would use cons or rifles and in the end, it all works out.