Its' relevant exactly because some seem to forget why MR was introduced in the first place.
And now that it has been introduced, and after several other buff conscripts have received over the years their superior vet bonuses where toned down.
[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback
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23 Dec 2020, 12:29 PM
#841
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
And now that it has been introduced, and after several other buff conscripts have received over the years their superior vet bonuses where toned down.
23 Dec 2020, 12:30 PM
#842
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
And now that it has been introduced, and after several other buff conscripts have received over the years their superior vet bonuses where toned down.
And now we can buff SVT, PPSH and 7th man separately if the need shows up!
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
23 Dec 2020, 12:41 PM
#843
Posts: 83
And now that it has been introduced, and after several other buff conscripts have received over the years their superior vet bonuses where toned down.
MR was introduced with those vet bonuses in mind and was since nerfed. Before MR was introduced cons received several changes, both buffs (higher base accuracy, the 10% acc bonus) and nerfs (increased oorah cost, increased pop, reduced damage) and it wasn't enough to make them popular. But from the patch history we can see where the issue lis with the SVT upgrade. Cons got reduced damage on Mosins but received accuracy bonuses to make them more consistent. This works fine with 7m and PPSH, which have their own modifiers, but if you add SVT into the equation, it eliminates the damge nerf but keeps the accuracy bonuses. This is perhaps something that should be looked at, but global nerf is not a good way to tackle this, considering PPSH and 7m were designed independently from SVT.
23 Dec 2020, 12:42 PM
#844
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
MR was introduced with those vet bonuses in mind and was since nerfed. ...
the issue lis with the SVT upgrade...
Not really MR was completely broken when introduced even before conscripts reached vet 3.
Patch notes are clear this has not only do to with SVT conscripts but with MR conscripts as well.
I would suspect but I might be wrong that the MOD team was concern about performance of vet 3 MR conscripts vs vet 5 ST44 VG (and VSL Vet 3 grenadiers) in cover to cover fights.
23 Dec 2020, 13:06 PM
#845
Posts: 83
Not really MR was completely broken when introduced even before conscripts reached vet 3.
Sure, that's why it was nerfed since then.
Patch notes are clear this has not only do to with SVT conscripts but with MR conscripts as well.
Yet that doesn't mean the intention or process behind the decision cannot be flawed. This is what feedback is for.
I would suspect but I might be wrong that the MOD team was concern about performance of vet 3 MR conscripts vs vet 5 ST44 VG (and VSL Vet 3 grenadiers) in cover to cover fights.
Perhaps partially. It's no secret that Volks and Grens are currently considered udnerwhelming in the late game. But 5m grens and STG volks are not very good units to "benchmark" in cover to cover scenarios, I'd use LMG grens if anything. 5m grens bully conscripts out of the game in mid game and shred them extremely fast when cought in the open. STG makes volks immune to close range pushes from cons very soon into the game, so again, the unit kinda nullifies cons combat performance at certain stages of the game. 7m cons don't do any of that, they just trade well in cover to cover firefight, but they don't roll over Axis infantry at any stage of the game.
23 Dec 2020, 13:16 PM
#846
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
.....
Perhaps partially. It's no secret that Volks and Grens are currently considered udnerwhelming in the late game. But 5m grens and STG volks are not very good units to "benchmark" in cover to cover scenarios, I'd use LMG grens if anything. 5m grens bully conscripts out of the game in mid game and shred them extremely fast when cought in the open. STG makes volks immune to close range pushes from cons very soon into the game, so again, the unit kinda nullifies cons combat performance at certain stages of the game. 7m cons don't do any of that, they just trade well in cover to cover firefight, but they don't roll over Axis infantry at any stage of the game.
LMG grenadier are not a good benchmark either since the are meant to excel at long cover to cover fights and the punch above their cost in that particular scenario.
MR conscripts can simply ourah to them and beat them.
VSL grenadier already received a nerf (well deserved) and now will perform the same in cover to cover fights vs MR conscripts in ver 4 as they do in live.
23 Dec 2020, 13:18 PM
#847
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
LMG grenadier are not a good benchmark either since the are meant to excel at long cover to cover fights and the punch above their cost in that particular scenario. MR conscripts can simply ourah to them and beat them.
6 man cons can do the same.
If you can't inflict enough damage to approaching inf, you aren't going to win CQC engagement with LMGs squipped.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
23 Dec 2020, 13:28 PM
#848
Posts: 83
LMG grenadier are not a good benchmark either since the are meant to excel at long cover to cover fights and the punch above their cost in that particular scenario.
Again, I personally consider LMG grens underwhelming, but in half of realistic scenarios neither side can leave cover due to taking damage from other squads or MGs, so in those static cases LMG grens are a good type of unit to compare. STG volks and 5m Grens prefer encounters at closer ranges or while mobile.
23 Dec 2020, 13:35 PM
#849
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Again, I personally consider LMG grens underwhelming, but in half of realistic scenarios neither side can leave cover due to taking damage from other squads or MGs, so in those static cases LMG grens are a good type of unit to compare. STG volks and 5m Grens prefer encounters at closer ranges or while mobile.
So let me get this straight:
LMG grenadiers are UP, VG are UP and Conscripts are up.
Since these units are fighting each other where does the problem lies? In riflemen and Tommies being OP?
23 Dec 2020, 13:48 PM
#850
Posts: 83
So let me get this straight:
LMG grenadiers are UP, VG are UP and Conscripts are up.
Since these units are fighting each other where does the problem lies? In riflemen and Tommies being OP?
What? Who said Cons are UP? They are simply fine. There is just no need to nerf them. Tommies are getting nerfed quite hard in their utility and map presence department. A lot around Rifles is getting nerfed too. Volks at vet5 can be somewhat underwhelming, but stuff they interact with is getting buffed like ISG, medics and timing of obers. Yes, LMG grens are UP, many people agreee on that, but why should other untis be brought down to their level instead of helping grens perform better in areas where tehy are bottlnecking?
Also you are forgetting asymmetrical design. Allies have better mainline infantry, Axis has better team weapons, tanks, grenades instead. The goal is not to make everything perform equally, but simply to properly adjust the strenghts and weaknesses. SOV needs some good infantry to compensate for bad team weapons and tanks, jsut like other allied factions.
23 Dec 2020, 13:52 PM
#851
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
What? Who said Cons are UP? They are simply fine. There is just no need to nerf them.
So the mod team isntead of buffing VG and Grenadier that are according to you "underwhelming" they decided to nerf the vet 3 conscripts instead.
So what it problem? Would rather have grenadier and VG buffed?
23 Dec 2020, 14:01 PM
#852
Posts: 83
So what it problem? Would rather have grenadier and VG buffed?
I have no problem. LMG gren could use a buff, vet5 Volks maybe as well, but what have cons too do with that? They are not fighting just those two units. What kind of question even is this? Would you buff Stug-E by nerfing every other AI vehicle and medium in the game?
23 Dec 2020, 14:02 PM
#853
Posts: 1979
dont vet 5 VGs also get sight buffs and self healing? if they do then VGs are perfectly fine...
LMG grens late game get -20% DR and -2 reinforce cost... id say they need a bit of a lategame adjustment but nothing too drastic...
LMG grens late game get -20% DR and -2 reinforce cost... id say they need a bit of a lategame adjustment but nothing too drastic...
23 Dec 2020, 14:07 PM
#854
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I have no problem. LMG gren could use a buff, vet5 Volks maybe as well, but what have cons too do with that? They are not fighting just those two units.
There are all mainline infatry and core of their faction. How Cosncripts do against obers is less relevant on how they do against Grenadier/VG.
What kind of question even is this? Would you buff Stug-E by nerfing every other AI vehicle and medium in the game?
The analogy is completely of mark.
23 Dec 2020, 14:18 PM
#855
Posts: 83
The analogy is completely of mark.
It's not. The idea of nerfing all other units because another one is outperformed is simply silly.
And why wouldn't conscript general performance be important? Last time I've checked the notes, they didn't state "Conscripts veterancy 3 bonus 10 % accuracy removed against grenadiers and volksgrenadeiers specifically". This is not Footmen Frenzy.
23 Dec 2020, 14:24 PM
#856
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
It's not. The idea of nerfing all other units because another one is outperformed is simply silly.
And why wouldn't conscript general performance be important? Last time I've checked the notes, they didn't state "Conscripts veterancy 3 bonus 10 % accuracy removed agaisnt grenadiers and volksgrenadeiers specifically". This is not Footmen Frenzy.
You argument is contradicts your claim. IF Grenadiers/VG are "underwhelming" it the conscripts that need a nerf and not the Grenadiers/VG that need a buff.
But it is a bad argument to begin with, each unit has an optimum power level and bringing it to that optimum power level is correct approach.
Number of units that are not at the optimum level is irrelevant.
23 Dec 2020, 14:35 PM
#857
Posts: 1979
confirmed... vet 5 VGs do self heal and heal pretty quickly and have massive sight radius in cover... id say vet 5 VGs are most definitely not as bad as you think...
23 Dec 2020, 15:22 PM
#858
Posts: 1794
Its' relevant exactly because some seem to forget why MR was introduced in the first place.
iirc in 2018 or 2019 there was a 2v2 wc.
allies/soviet were the strongest as most agreed.
since then, the mod team played around with heavy call-ins, gave MR to sov, buff maxim. but otherwise, sov faction remained untouched.
so im perplexed a lot others are saying sov are UP now. imo is bollocks. sov are still the strongest 2v2 faction imo, especially with 7man cons now.
thus it hurts to see mod team, rushed to nerf ostt and vsl grens because of a single 1v1 wc recently.
23 Dec 2020, 15:53 PM
#859
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
confirmed... vet 5 VGs do self heal and heal pretty quickly and have massive sight radius in cover... id say vet 5 VGs are most definitely not as bad as you think...
Wow, they can self-heal out of combat and have sight radius but still standart mainline fighting range. Jeez, someone please stop this OKW OP and axis bias already.
On a serious note, VGs vet 4 and 5 gives flavor bonuses, because "OKW supposed to have 5 lvls of vet", aside from that it arguably gives you nothing in terms of combat perfomance.
23 Dec 2020, 16:07 PM
#860
Posts: 1979
i never even said VGs were OP... im just saying theyre better than you think they are...
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