[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

This is objectively false, the generalist nature of the ISU means it can engage any target. Meanwhile the ele/jt jave to back off when being pushed by anything other than armor. Not to mention allied TDs can reliably pen both frontally, I challenge you to do the same to the ISU with a JP4 or stug.

Lol you don't back off your ISU when rushed by a/various Panther? Sure you ever played soviet?

Ram is being nerfed out of the game just like the demo. This is a massive buff for any axis heavy/super heavy. Isu is getting 2 nerves excluding the massive indirect buff of the axis heavies.
Isu is getting triple nerfed basicly just like the t70.

The isu needs to swith ammo because of its range and dual role. Cant remember the time to switch but its a long time.

If having to switch ammo is bad thing lets nerf the Elefant and JT by also giving them AP/HE munition with 60 range.

And does less damage per shot then ele

How maany shot does Elefant need to kill a medium tank and how many does the ISU?

and has less armour

What is the probability of ATG or JP to penetrate an Elefant at range 60 frontally and what probability M36/SU-85 to do the same?

If these nerfs are implemented the isu defenitly needs mobility buff in return if it gets 60 range on its ai needs to move in range of enemie superheavies to do its ai role.

Not really.

Meanwhile the ele/jt have to back off when being pushed by anything other than armor. Not to mention allied TDs can reliably pen both frontally,

Pen frontally? Dude in this scenerio Axis player must be braindead and his friends too.
Ele in good hands is almost impossible to catch.
I have no idea why jager armor still exist in current form. Self spotting heavy armored tank destroyer with little micro input can counter all alied tanks and u cant even use static howitzers because recon and stuka offmap exist hmm balanced. Frankly this is meta problem and should be fixed now.

If having to switch ammo is bad thing lets nerf the Elefant and JT by also giving them AP/HE munition with 60 range.


How maany shot does Elefant need to kill a medium tank and how many does the ISU?


What is the probability of ATG or JP to penetrate an Elefant at range 60 frontally and what probability M36/SU-85 to do the same?


Not really.

I never said needing to swith ammo is a bad thing. It keeps the isu in check wich is good. If its ai round are in and you get your panthers close to it its gonna suffer.

234 far pen for the zis 286 far pen for the su85 at vet 3 vs 400 armour on the ele and 247 far pen vs 340 armour of the isu, you are the stats and number guy you can do the exact numbers but the pak will probably pen the isu more often then the zis will an ele.
The jp does not belong in this comparison it has very high rof and low pen cuz its a beefy medium td. Axis have panthers allies have better stock heavy td,s wich get their asses kicked by ele and jagdt.

After 2 shot a allied medium is left with 40 health after the ele hits it twice. If an isu hits twice the axis medium is left with 160 hp.
I ask you wich medium has a better chance to survive if either isu and ele have any at support?

As for not really... that your opnion and thats fine.

I never said needing to swith ammo is a bad thing. It keeps the isu in check wich is good. If its ai round are in and you get your panthers close to it its gonna suffer.

234 far pen for the zis 286 far pen for the su85 at vet 3 vs 400 armour on the ele and 247 far pen vs 340 armour of the isu, you are the stats and number guy you can do the exact numbers but the pak will probably pen the isu more often then the zis will an ele.

Now try to kill a zis with Elefant and Pak with ISU.

The jp does not belong in this comparison it has very high rof and low pen cuz its a beefy medium td. Axis have panthers allies have better stock heavy td,s wich get their asses kicked by ele and jagdt.

Try using 2 M36 with AP around vs Elefant and see what happens, hell try using 3 Su-76 vs Elefant and see what happens.

After 2 shot a allied medium is left with 40 health after the ele hits it twice. If an isu hits twice the axis medium is left with 160 hp.
I ask you wich medium has a better chance to survive if either isu and ele have any at support?

As for not really... that your opnion and thats fine.

If the support is tank or ATG its the same since weather 40 or 160 they still need only 1 shot.

Elfant is single purpose unit, it a slow tank destroyer design to win frontal engagement, attacking frontally and expecting to win is actually doing something wrong.

Now try to kill a zis with Elefant and Pak with ISU.

Try using 2 M36 with AP around vs Elefant and see what happens, hell try using 3 Su-76 vs Elefant and see what happens.

And now you try something that is actually realistic and put 2 PaKs near that elefant.

Elfant is single purpose unit, it a slow tank destroyer design to win frontal engagement

And yet SU-85 and Jackson have so much penetration with vet or HVAP that not even this reliably works. The Elefant's 400 frontal armour is not particularly impressive against 390 max frontal penetration of the Jackson considering how fast the Jackson is and how easily it can close in.

Elefant is not in need of nerfs the problem is just the doctrine being too good overall.

The ISU is OP as it is but also comes in doctrines that are way too strong in team games so it's even worse.

And yet SU-85 and Jackson have so much penetration with vet or HVAP that not even this reliably works. The Elefant's 400 frontal armour is not particularly impressive against 390 max frontal penetration of the Jackson considering how fast the Jackson is and how easily it can close in.

Elefant is not in need of nerfs the problem is just the doctrine being too good overall.

The ISU is OP as it is but also comes in doctrines that are way too strong in team games so it's even worse.

Agree and the mod team seem to agree also and thus they have decided to lower the penetration buff of M36/Su-85.

the current elefant isnt OP... the problem with the elefant and the jagdtiger though is that there are only 2 real counters to the elefant... the first is ram + IL-2 and the second is a critical mass of jacksons... the first got removed from the game and the second got a nerf...

if the balance team DOES wish to nerf the SU-85/jackson/ram then the elefant and the jagdtiger need concurrent nerfs aswell...

And yet SU-85 and Jackson have so much penetration with vet or HVAP that not even this reliably works. The Elefant's 400 frontal armour is not particularly impressive against 390 max frontal penetration of the Jackson considering how fast the Jackson is and how easily it can close in.

Elefant is not in need of nerfs the problem is just the doctrine being too good overall.

The ISU is OP as it is but also comes in doctrines that are way too strong in team games so it's even worse.

You mean to tell me that getting a Jackson to vet3 + using munitions to penetrate a unit that would otherwise be impenetrable by USF roster is OP? Really? Imagine a teamgame where Jackson can't penetrate a 1040 hp tank reliably by any means necessary. And if you're scared for your elefant that the mean old USF player is massing Jacksons.... don't play tanks. With so much pop cap wasted on AT only, axis infantry and team weapons can have a nice little field day with that USF player.
In the end, one or two jacksons are not enough to kill an elefant that is supported, in teamgames ofc. 1v1 is a whole different story. In teamgames, USF has to rely on support from teammates to take down elefant or jagd. Because a supported elefant is unkillable. One 70 range tank supported by a one pak and infantry is enough to deal with anything that the USF throws. Best bet is to smoke and hope for the best.

But agreed, elefant is not OP. The doctrine is. ISU is also not OP, the doctrine is.

Now try to kill a zis with Elefant and Pak with ISU.

Try using 2 M36 with AP around vs Elefant and see what happens, hell try using 3 Su-76 vs Elefant and see what happens.

If the support is tank or ATG its the same since weather 40 or 160 they still need only 1 shot.

Elfant is single purpose unit, it a slow tank destroyer design to win frontal engagement, attacking frontally and expecting to win is actually doing something wrong.

Try those units against a supported ele. These equal fuel/popcap match ups almost never happen, an ele is never alone. If it is its a player problem.

And where do you have the option to not engage an ele frontaly in this game? Almost nowhere. Big maps are 3 or 4 lanes with a few crossing options where you will run into the other players most likely. You can almost never flank in big games where ele's and isu's reighn. If flanking is a viable option you'd have a point.

The su76's wont have enough time to kill it, any support will kill them before they kill the ele with all their bouncing. Or the support draws the fire of the su76's also bouncing their shots.
The m36's wont fair better as the support will probably kill the m36,s before they finish off the ele.

The isu is under more threat then elephants are. Esp if ram gets gutted as intended The panther has more then decent chance to pen frontaly. It has a decent chance to bounce isu or other at fire. Its lots faster. And its also getting an unneeded and undeserved acc buff. Making it an even greater threat.

Now reduce isu ai range and it needs to expose itself to danger more often against supirior at fire power wich initself is already a bigger threat then allied at is to the elephant. It needs to have a decent chance to backoff if forced to be closer to the action.

Not everything is about units in a vacuum. The faction the unit is in matters as well. Its probably more important.

Coming back to hp left after 2 shot from ele and isu.
If the support is anything other the a tank or at gun. Say shrecks zooks ptrs and piats. The shreck will have a far greater chance off succes. Higher pen higher damage vs less hp left. The zook and ptrs do less damage have less pen vs higher remaining hp plus higher armour of those mediums.

Try those units against a supported ele. These equal fuel/popcap match ups almost never happen, an ele is never alone. If it is its a player problem.

And where do you have the option to not engage an ele frontaly in this game? Almost nowhere. Big maps are 3 or 4 lanes with a few crossing options where you will run into the other players most likely. You can almost never flank in big games where ele's and isu's reighn. If flanking is a viable option you'd have a point.

The su76's wont have enough time to kill it, any support will kill them before they kill the ele with all their bouncing. Or the support draws the fire of the su76's also bouncing their shots.
The m36's wont fair better as the support will probably kill the m36,s before they finish off the ele.

The isu is under more threat then elephants are. Esp if ram gets gutted as intended The panther has more then decent chance to pen frontaly. It has a decent chance to bounce isu or other at fire. Its lots faster. And its also getting an unneeded and undeserved acc buff. Making it an even greater threat.

Now reduce isu ai range and it needs to expose itself to danger more often against supirior at fire power wich initself is already a bigger threat then allied at is to the elephant. It needs to have a decent chance to backoff if forced to be closer to the action.

Not everything is about units in a vacuum. The faction the unit is in matters as well. Its probably more important.

Coming back to hp left after 2 shot from ele and isu.
If the support is anything other the a tank or at gun. Say shrecks zooks ptrs and piats. The shreck will have a far greater chance off succes. Higher pen higher damage vs less hp left. The zook and ptrs do less damage have less pen vs higher remaining hp plus higher armour of those mediums.

Forgot to anser try to kill a zis with elephant question.

The isu will cleun up a pak. But the ele will bounce some shot while backing off.

Try those units against a supported ele. These equal fuel/popcap match ups almost never happen, an ele is never alone. If it is its a player problem....
Not everything is about units in a vacuum...

I am simply responding to your claim that "allies have better stock heavy td,s wich get their asses kicked by ele and jagdt" and pointing out that pound for pound Elefant lose those TDs. Once could make that claim when Elefant did 320 damage but that is not the case anymore.

Now think about the other way around and lets say Elefant gets nerfed and it can no longer win vs allied TDs frontally. How is factions Axis going to counter all the "better stock heavy td,s" allies get?

I am simply responding to your claim that "allies have better stock heavy td,s wich get their asses kicked by ele and jagdt" and pointing out that pound for pound Elefant lose those TDs. Once could make that claim when Elefant did 320 damage but that is not the case anymore.

Now think about the other way around and lets say Elefant gets nerfed and it can no longer win vs allied TDs frontally. How is factions Axis going to counter all the "better stock heavy td,s" allies get?

Paks, raketen, JP4. It's not a question of how to counter, but what is on the top of the food chain. You can't deny the fact that not one tank can harm elefant at any distance reliably. In teamgames, Elefant, Jagd and ISU152 reign supreme.
ISU152 deserved a nerf in rear armour, not HE range. HE range maybe to 65. In the end, couldn't care less since nothing will change. Whereaboos will screech that the HE is still OP, and the ISU will get nerfed again and Panther buffed.

Question for you: You're playing soviets, how would you counter a supported elefant in 2v2 and 3v3 vs a really good player?

Once again good changes.

A few problems:

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M3 change is fantastic. However T1 requires further buffs. T1 is still extremely weak due to the following reasons:

A. The only T1 AT option forces you to give up the Anti infantry strength of your mainline.

B. The AT option itself is bad because it doesn't have enough damage output to avoid getting forced to retreat or at least getting bled before the vehicle is pushed back.

C. You only have very few snares (2 max) and they have very limited range. This is particularly problematic when using the Sniper.

D. ATGuns are the most cost efficient units in the game so there's very little reason not to get ZIS-Guns.

Sanders suggestion of giving the PTRS upgrade three PTRS while increasing the price accordingly would solve problem b. but enhance problem c. All your early AT on one squad would mean that if that squad gets pinned or forced to retreat you are completely exposed.

My preferred solution:

- Move PTRS to Cons, unlocked with T1 build
- Penal AT Satchels get unlocked with AT nade tech
- Possibly give Penals Molotovs
- decreased Penal buildtime

This directly solves Problems C. and A. because a mix of Cons and Penals combined with AT nade tech would lead to normal amounts of snares and Penals no longer have to waste their AI strength by upgrading PTRS. It would also partly solve Problem B. because cons bleed less when getting slaughtered by the vehicle they're fighting. Better Penal Buildtime would give the T1 opening quicker map presence. It would still be significantly weaker than a con opening in this regard.

Penals would now function as a supplement to cons (which from my understanding makes perfect sense thematically). Realistically you'd probably only get 1 (when combined with a sniper) or 2 most of the time because you'll want two PTRS cons for AT. 2 Cons, 3 Penals into T70 would be very manpower heavyy but not unthinkable. Encouraging Con/Penal Combos has the additional advantage that it allows for usage of merge and sandbags which both benefit penals but isn't enough of a reason to mix the two in the current version since Penals don't benefit at all from the at nade upgrade so you might as well just spam cons to make it worthwhile. For the same reason i would at least consider giving penals molotovs.

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ZIS-Gun barrage is still broken. It negates MG positions without any significant additional costs. Mabye increase its ammo price to 50-60? This could at least lead to a little less mid game ammo float for soviets. Its uncounterable nature justifies the price increase imo.

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SU 76 needs to be less of a pain in the ass to micro. You need to play multiple SU76 most of the time and it's an absolute pain in the ass to control them because the unit feels unresponsive as hell. Buff base acceleration. SU-76 needs to be handled with care though because it is one of those units that can quickly become op when spammed.

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T 70 is still overpowered. Rebalancing the core armies should finally end the t70s reign as a "crutch unit". Osttruppen Nerf, 5men nerf, Puma Nerf, Maxim Buff, (hopefully) sufficient T1 buff should allow for further nerfs. However I wouldn't further nerf its reload because its AT performance is not in question.

Once again good changes.
My preferred solution would be encouraging a mix of penals and cons by moving the PTRS upgrade to Cons and having it unlocked when T1 is built. AT satchels remain on penals and get unlocked with AT nade tech. This directly solves Problems c. and a. because a mix of Cons and Penals combined with AT nade tech would lead to normal amounts of snares and Penals no longer have to waste their AI strength by upgrading PTRS. It would also partly solve Problem b. because cons bleed less when getting slaughtered by the vehicle they're fighting. In addition I would decrease the Penal Buildtime to give the T1 opening quicker map presence. It would still be significantly weaker than a con opening in this regard.

This is a brilliant suggestion, that would solve several T1 and T0 related issues at once.

Paks, raketen, JP4. It's not a question of how to counter, but what is on the top of the food chain. You can't deny the fact that not one tank can harm elefant at any distance reliably. In teamgames, Elefant, Jagd and ISU152 reign supreme.

Frontally FF with tulips/Pershing with AP/ISU with AP/M36 with AP/SU-85 vet2 will all damage the Elephant reliably.

At side/rear armor all tank will harm Elefant reliably.

ISU152 deserved a nerf in rear armour, not HE range. HE range maybe to 65. In the end, couldn't care less since nothing will change. Whereaboos will screech that the HE is still OP, and the ISU will get nerfed again and Panther buffed.

Question for you: You're playing soviets, how would you counter a supported elefant in 2v2 and 3v3 vs a really good player?

smoke,Ram/ off map, mark target, ISU AP shot, Artillery, AT infatry (partisans, PTRS conscripts, AT satchels) or simply ignore it and move on another side of the map until the Elefant and its support can arrive.

But I am pretty sure that you can ask for advice from better player than me.

Interesting direction about moving PTRS to Conscripts. Although it might need some fine tuning it superior to the current state of Penals. From design point of view it never be about one unit or the other but about synergy. (one could also add a separate AT oriented unit at T1)

Zis barrage needs a longer CD for sure.

SU-76 acceleration is already superior to that Stug III and so its rotation, have you tried the unit in patch with changes in cone?