[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

The Penal PTRS conundrum is difficult.

The is Penal are expected to fill too many roles.
One should simply add another unit to T1.

Maybe even the dam SU-76 and add some more tech cost for it.

I played some more games (against a better opponent) and they don't seem as strong as I initially thought. Double MG42 really shuts Penals down, especially with PTRS because you can't fire on the move. If there is a new OP strategy it will be because of DSHK/Heavy Mortar/Sniper protected behind a PTRS Penal wall, not the Penals themselves. Perhaps Conscripts and Tier 2 will still remain a better and safer route than Tier 1 in high level play but in team games I suspect they'll be popular for their blobability. The problem with relying on DSHK is they still death loop compared to MG42 and they are easy to get stolen, leading to massive swings. All in all though, I love the new changes.

By they way are the replays ok because I seem have trouble replaying them.

The games with Machine were interesting, and the first i've played with 2.1.

-G1
No comments on balance overall. I didnt play osttruppen enough last patch to get a feel of how to use them well, and dont feel like I used it or flamer HT optimally enough to make any judgement on the matchup.

Ptrs penals really zoned out flamer HT in a very big radius, but it didnt make the flamer HT useless even though DPS seems noticeably higher (is the aimtime 1.25-> 0.5 buff also a functional 0.75 second ROF buff?).

In an earlier game a ptrs squad in green cover dueled an OKW p4 very successfully (brought down to half health with little damage in return). I am fairly confident that ptrs squads can outtrade an ostheer p4 head on barring bad RNG, and cannot be pushed like a shreck squad either. this is not necessarily a problem, however.

w.r.t. the ptrs penal change: I feel like its good. I don't think its too strong, but worth testing in the unlikely event of overly strong combinations. I agree with Machine that its going to be more relevant in 2v2 than 1v1.

Machine didnt have a zis for a long time, which I think would have been a stronger follow up than a mortar (understandable choice given my triple HMG). I think elchino's (?) suggestion for 220MP basic mortars for wehr and soviet merits testing, especially vs more conventional double AT gun compositions which are currently as strong as ever.

-G2
Second match was more standard wehr, skipped t2 due to confidence in the early game. couldve been punished if he went lend-lease guard halftrack. Here, lmg grens and MG42 really shredded penals, so there wasnt much of a change here compared to live.

Machine dived with the SU76 on a damaged P4 at one point, which I think was not really possible pre-patch. Caveat; P4 was isolated and on the wrong side of a wide map. I do like the mobility change.

@vipper- I tested the replays again, no issue watching them on my end.

The is Penal are expected to fill too many roles.

Whooping 2 of them.
Like many, many other units from all factions in game.

New idea for ram: make ram into an equipable ability with a 60 second or longer cooldown. If you want to ram something, you lose the main gun until disengaged + cooldown, meaning you have a useless tank for a while, and if you miscalculate the ram attempt, that tank can't even fire back until the cooldown is over.

I'd still like T34/76s to be viable. Wish we could try returning to the original vision of a cheap spammable tank that's basically useless against even a PzIV unless you have two of them. Make them cheaper, build faster and more acceleration, do some DPM calculations and nerf the main gun if need be.

"All Allied Transport Half-Tracks (M5 Half-track and M3 Half-track)
A feature update to encourage the usage of non-upgraded transport half-tracks by acting as an alternative source of healing for the player, similar to the 251.
- USF M3 and M5, and Soviet M5 Half-tracks can now heal infantry in their hold when out of combat.
- M3 Medical Crate ability removed"

The speed of healing seem to be too fast, especially since the M5 can heal up to 14 entities simultaneously.

"All Allied Transport Half-Tracks (M5 Half-track and M3 Half-track)
A feature update to encourage the usage of non-upgraded transport half-tracks by acting as an alternative source of healing for the player, similar to the 251.
- USF M3 and M5, and Soviet M5 Half-tracks can now heal infantry in their hold when out of combat.
- M3 Medical Crate ability removed"

The speed of healing seem to be too fast, especially since the M5 can heal up to 14 entities simultaneously.

Its exactly the same as any other HT.
Its completely irrelevant how many models they can heal, that's still maximum of 2 squads.
Its completely irrelevant how many models they can heal, all healing is now AoE.
251 can heal up to 12 models and it still is completely irrelevant.

Halftrucks are now consistent with each other in on board healing, that's what you always ask for.

Its exactly the same as any other HT.
Its completely irrelevant how many models they can heal, that's still maximum of 2 squads.
Its completely irrelevant how many models they can heal, all healing is now AoE.
251 can heal up to 12 models and it still is completely irrelevant.

Halftrucks are now consistent with each other in on board healing, that's what you always ask for.

I suggest you test the unit.

Number of entities is relevant.

- Fixed an issue where the Commissar's revolver did not have the same effective range as other pistols.

This change does not seem to be enough since the Revolver does not seem to in line with other Pistol damage wise and should probably be buffed.

Penal have been bandaided so many times that they simply do not have any design.

How is Penals' "design" being an alternative mainline infantry to supplement Cons any different? It's not like people don't go straight Fusies and No Volks like people go straight Penal builds. They also have two clear paths: either keep them vanilla AI or go PTRS route. There is also nothing stopping players from using them like P-Grens either and building several Conscripts/Engineers before building a Penal with similar timing to P Grens. Your concerns about the fact that they come in with Full AI power unlike Fusies doesn't have real balance concerns right now because 1) Penals are hardly being used right now so their early game AI power obviously isn't a balance issue right now 2) Nothing in the balance patch changes that right now aside from a slight T1 build time decrease

Just come to terms with the fact that the "design" of the Penal is basically a hybrid Fusie/PG that has it's own drawbacks different from them. IF they are used more it'll likely only be because their PTRS route is actually viable to use now and facilitates different strategies, which is a good thing. I'm open to nerfing them if the PTRS package is too potent (I'm leaning towards removing AT satchels or locking them to T4). But you really can't seriously argue that Soviets shouldn't have a stock infantry AT upgrade when every other faction has that option...

I mean I guess you could mold Penals into Fusies and have them start cheaper/weaker with a SVT upgrade package but I think that's a terrible way to go because it adds additional balancing problems and once again Penals early game power isn't an issue

The sort answer is that one should not expect to make T1 viable by making 1 unit (Penal in this case) cover everything.

Show Spoiler

How is Penals' "design" being an alternative mainline infantry to supplement Cons any different? It's not like people don't go straight Fusies and No Volks like people go straight Penal builds. They also have two clear paths: either keep them vanilla AI or go PTRS route. There is also nothing stopping players from using them like P-Grens either and building several Conscripts/Engineers before building a Penal with similar timing to P Grens. Your concerns about the fact that they come in with Full AI power unlike Fusies doesn't have real balance concerns right now because 1) Penals are hardly being used right now so their early game AI power obviously isn't a balance issue right now 2) Nothing in the balance patch changes that right now aside from a slight T1 build time decrease

Just come to terms with the fact that the "design" of the Penal is basically a hybrid Fusie/PG that has it's own drawbacks different from them. IF they are used more it'll likely only be because their PTRS route is actually viable to use now and facilitates different strategies, which is a good thing. I'm open to nerfing them if the PTRS package is too potent (I'm leaning towards removing AT satchels or locking them to T4). But you really can't seriously argue that Soviets shouldn't have a stock infantry AT upgrade when every other faction has that option...

I mean I guess you could mold Penals into Fusies and have them start cheaper/weaker with a SVT upgrade package but I think that's a terrible way to go because it adds additional balancing problems and once again Penals early game power isn't an issue

"Alternative mainlines" really need not directly follow the PF model of "Starts worse, becomes better late". There's room for two mainlines to provide "Different" strengths to an army, rather than one simply being "better" than the other. I could well see Penals being made to be a more "Aggressive" Mainline, and Conscripts being tweaked to be more "Defensive", for example. The specifics involved in this are debatable, but I really don't think there's cause to dismiss the concept out of hand.

Given that PF are doctrinal, and Penals are stock, it's understandable that PF can appear to be more enticing than Volks, incidentally. I should like to see both Volks and PF changed a little, but that's outside the scope of the "Soviet" thread.


EDIT: I also still think Penals as the "AT" unit in T1 should be replaced with a Guards unit of some variety. Guard's utility abilities (Button, for example) help make up for PTRS' somewhat lacklustre performance in AT terms far more elegantly than the AT satchel does.

Snip.

This is pretty much the case currently with Penals being glass cannons and Conscipts having sandbags and 7th man upgrade. The patch tweaks Penals to make them less glass-y in the late game but I haven't tested them enough to comment on how they feel late game. I don't know if PTRS can really be classified as either offensive or defensive but balance wise I think it's better to put it on the more expensive squad to limit blob-ability and be a conscious choice. I'd also like to see something like Button replace satchel though I'd like more variety of abilities and let Guards keep their uniqueness.

This is pretty much the case currently with Penals being glass cannons and Conscipts having sandbags and 7th man upgrade. The patch tweaks Penals to make them less glass-y in the late game but I haven't tested them enough to comment on how they feel late game. I don't know if PTRS can really be classified as either offensive or defensive but balance wise I think it's better to put it on the more expensive squad to limit blob-ability and be a conscious choice. I'd also like to see something like Button replace satchel though I'd like more variety of abilities and let Guards keep their uniqueness.

Being expensive does do much for preventing a blob if the unit is available earlier and can the blob can counter infatry/light vehicles and mediums tank alike.

Penal in the Patch have become allot more blobable than they are in live.

This is pretty much the case currently with Penals being glass cannons and Conscipts having sandbags and 7th man upgrade. The patch tweaks Penals to make them less glass-y in the late game but I haven't tested them enough to comment on how they feel late game. I don't know if PTRS can really be classified as either offensive or defensive but balance wise I think it's better to put it on the more expensive squad to limit blob-ability and be a conscious choice. I'd also like to see something like Button replace satchel though I'd like more variety of abilities and let Guards keep their uniqueness.

To some degree, but Penals being behind an extra building, and costing quite so much more than Conscripts, (And not scaling quite so well, particularly in terms of utility) causes them to be rather less viable as a "Mainline alternative", and more as a strange "shock unit" that they truly exist as now, which has limited them/their usage.

The concept I had in mind would be to have them both be tier 0, both be approximately the same price, and both be similarly equipped weapons-wise, but diverge when it came to abilities and potential upgrades. I really would prefer they lost the PTRS upgrade, or Cons got it instead though, particularly if they did become the "Offensive" variation of mainline infantry. (But I still think tier 1 guards is the better solution). Both should have merge, incidentally.

"Alternative mainlines" really need not directly follow the PF model of "Starts worse, becomes better late". There's room for two mainlines to provide "Different" strengths to an army, rather than one simply being "better" than the other. I could well see Penals being made to be a more "Aggressive" Mainline, and Conscripts being tweaked to be more "Defensive", for example. The specifics involved in this are debatable, but I really don't think there's cause to dismiss the concept out of hand.

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if both units were exactly the same except for vet we would see this already. con vet makes them very durable and penal vet quite formidable.

one might entertain the idea of a soviet infantry system reform
consider:

concripts- t0. cheaper and worse than now. something more akin to ostroppen. only good in cover but swarm the field- no vet. 7 man with t3 but no bonuses to cooldown. expendable
when t1/t2 is built they can be "upgraded" via promotion or demotion...
strelky- promotion upgrade path of cons. more or less what cons are now. can be upgraded with a DP-28 when t3 is built and another at t4. DEFENSIVE infantry.
penal battalion- demotion upgrade class of cons. instead of defensive vet, they got penals offensive vet. can upgrade to 3 SVTs with t3, 3 more with t4. OFFENSIVE infantry

both stem from the same core, t0 unit. both paths cost resources. both paths lose access to merge, oorah and sandbags so cons are always useful

if one wanted to take it further, once fully vetted these paths could continue into elite infantry. promotion path could culminate in guards at t4 instead of an extra dp28 (requires upgrade) and the demotion path could end in shock troops (again, requiring upgrade)

rough and ugly concept but eh.

gives soviet a unique feel and a diverse infantry roster all based out of conscripts.

Being expensive does do much for preventing a blob if the unit is available earlier and can the blob can counter infatry/light vehicles and mediums tank alike.

Penal in the Patch have become allot more blobable than they are in live.

Yup that's why in Tightrope's test video PTRS Penals did less damage to infantry than in live! They increased PTRS accuracy so that in theory their AI damage is the same as live but now that their SVT damage in concentrated on 3 models you notice a faster drop off in AI damage as they bleed models. The end result is they are worse off at AI since you're relying on low percentage PTRS shots against infantry at <4 models. So yeah, they are less blobable now if you counter them with infantry and don't try to A move tanks into PTRS blobs.

Yup that's why in Tightrope's test video PTRS Penals did less damage to infantry than in live! They increased PTRS accuracy so that in theory their AI damage is the same as live but now that their SVT damage in concentrated on 3 models you notice a faster drop off in AI damage as they bleed models. The end result is they are worse off at AI since you're relying on low percentage PTRS shots against infantry at <4 models. So yeah, they are less blobable now if you counter them with infantry and don't try to A move tanks into PTRS blobs.

Not really:
Show Spoiler

All that makes a Penal blolb of 4-5 squad (1-2 PTRS ones) allot most cost efficient in the patch than in live.

PTRS penal have low AI due to the accuracy of the weapon. They also lose allot of AI when they drop models because PTRS transfer. That is all correct.

On the other hand they get allot of accuracy with veterancy and vet 1 ability increases their stat when they lose. The problem do not really start until they vet 3 the same the problem really start 7 men conscripts. And on top of that there are number of doctrinal option to boost accuracy.

There PTRS can also destroy enemy cover and help them in "trench warfare".

In sort PTRS penal AT is good enough and their AI is superior to most other AT infantries.
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We can debate their balance as long as you like but that is not the problem. The problem is their design. A unit that carries a whole soviet faction a is faction with most infantries available to them is simply bad design.

Every other faction also needs just 2 squads to keep tanks away. Only okw needs doctrines for this with fussies, sturm only get 1 shreck.

I believe this will free soviets from double at gun play, thus less zis barrages to suffer through. The su76 could synergyse well even with just one ptrs penal squad. Penals can actualy defend against attack towards lv and team weapons by armour.

If the ptrs change stays on penals they should loose the at satchal, and the upgrade could easely go to 90 or 100 muni imo.