[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

After initial testing:
The new Soviet M5 seemed rather oppressive since it increased Soviet staying power significantly and it was harder to dive for it with the new AT Penals.

New Penal seem very hard to kill and the seemed to have considerable AI even when upgrade with PTRS. Vet 3 penal last entity has a target size of 0.66 ). And one has to take into account other doctrinal buffs like Auras from HQ/Tanks/Commissar for mother Russia.

In one came using 2 Penal I ended up doing 7.800 damage to infatry and 11.474 damage to vehicles although I upgrade to PTRS rather early.

If the 7man cons upgrade is somewhat difficult to place in the soviet tech tree, is there some reason it couldn't be split into multiple "levelled" upgrades, and spread out a little more across the tech tree?

Ergo, after tier 3 you can allow Cons to upgrade to 7 men (or allow them to upgrade to have the reduced reinforcement cost) and then after tier four is constructed apply the remaining part of the upgrade (either behind a further research or immediately upon construction of tier 4)? That might help alleviate how spiky the upgrade is, while still allowing Conscripts (and Penals) to be improved somewhat in the midgame.

Perhaps there is something I'm missing?

If the 7man cons upgrade is somewhat difficult to place in the soviet tech tree, is there some reason it couldn't be split into multiple "levelled" upgrades, and spread out a little more across the tech tree?

Ergo, after tier 3 you can allow Cons to upgrade to 7 men (or allow them to upgrade to have the reduced reinforcement cost) and then after tier four is constructed apply the remaining part of the upgrade (either behind a further research or immediately upon construction of tier 4)? That might help alleviate how spiky the upgrade is, while still allowing Conscripts (and Penals) to be improved somewhat in the midgame.

Perhaps there is something I'm missing?

It already too powerful. 7 men conscripts costing 258/60 will beat 5 men grenadier costing 270/60 while taking up a ability slot. It should be toned down move to T3 and be done with it.

Had a few games with sov, 7 men arrive way to early and ostruppen is now not really that strong anymore i feel, Essentially at around 5-8 (Whenever t3 is build really) ostruppen fall into complete irrelvancy since the 7men conscripts will push them out of the map, combined with m42/zis and sandbags makes for a horrid opponent to go up against. And incredibly easy to play for sov. The matchup for wehr is insanely difficult now i think. I will test a few more games but the meta is so incredibly rigid. Ostruppen genuinely feel like the only option when playing vs sov rn.

7-man cons arrive approximately 1-2 minutes earlier then they do currently on live.
You feel they arrive way too fast likely because you haven't played a singular game with unlocking them through T3 and always got them by T4, where most people get them, because side costs involved are too great outside of 3v3 and 4v4.

And osttruppen have served their purpose by 5th minute already.

Was I drawing comparisons to other weapon upgrades? Also wrong, Ostruppen lmg.

Point is 7 man doesnt come too early since equivalent weapon upgrades come much sooner... and Ostruppen arent a core mainline... conscripts grens vg is and rifles are core mainlines

Lastly do note that sov t4 and ost t4 take around the same cost to rush ( without buildings for ost or sidetechs for sov) and realistically comes out at around the same time aswell

Point is 7 man doesnt come too early since equivalent weapon upgrades come much sooner... and Ostruppen arent a core mainline... conscripts grens vg is and rifles are core mainlines

Lastly do note that sov t4 and ost t4 take around the same cost to rush ( without buildings for ost or sidetechs for sov) and realistically comes out at around the same time aswell

You didn't say "Core" mainline, you just said "Mainline". Ostruppen are absolutely "Mainline" infantry, they largely replace Grenadiers when they're used.

I like most of the changes but 7-man needs to be toned down if its available much earlier in my opinion. Otherwise I think Soviets will probably be in a much better state which is good to see.

You didn't say "Core" mainline, you just said "Mainline". Ostruppen are absolutely "Mainline" infantry, they largely replace Grenadiers when they're used.

The point is conscripts should be compared against vg grens rifles and IS WITHOUT doctrines.... cuz with doctrines cons do get their upgrades at the same time as other facs

Point is 7 man doesnt come too early since equivalent weapon upgrades come much sooner... and Ostruppen arent a core mainline... conscripts grens vg is and rifles are core mainlines

Lastly do note that sov t4 and ost t4 take around the same cost to rush ( without buildings for ost or sidetechs for sov) and realistically comes out at around the same time aswell

Did you read the patchnotes? Here let me help you use your eyes. See this is the balance preview patch 2.0 version that came out recently.

"Mobilize Reserves

Mobilize Reserves is being changed to give Soviet players an option to improve their infantry in the mid-game, without having to pay a high resource cost to access, or waiting for the Mechanized Kampenya. Furthermore, Penal Battalions will now be affected by this tech to reduce their manpower bleed in the late-game.

Mobilize Reserve Upgrade now reduces Penal Battlion reinforce by 2; upgrade is auto applied if the Mechanized Armour Kampenya (T4) is purchase
No longer requires Conscript Molotov and AT Grenade upgrades"

7-man cons arrive approximately 1-2 minutes earlier then they do currently on live.
You feel they arrive way too fast likely because you haven't played a singular game with unlocking them through T3 and always got them by T4, where most people get them, because side costs involved are too great outside of 3v3 and 4v4.

And osttruppen have served their purpose by 5th minute already.

This is wrong. I've had multiple games today where they come out around the 6~~ min mark (I think i had it out by 5:15 at one point too), at the latest it's 7-8.

Also, this is a lot of assumptions? I'm a top 1v1 player, I've experimented with it a lot, and in probably over 30~~ games used the early at-nade-Molo mobilize reserve rush. Even more bizarelly, thinking ostruppen have served their purpose by the 5th minute??? This is now how coh2 works. Ostruppen generally only become useless by the time 7men come out, in any other matchup they are still extremely strong because of their sandbags and their cover bonus. But 7men makes that completely useless

Jeez, I'm getting secondhand embarrassment from you. Please for the love of god actually play the preview before shitting up the thread.

This is wrong. I've had multiple games today where they come out around the 6~~ min mark (I think i had it out by 5:15 at one point too), at the latest it's 7-8.

How is that wrong?
If you go for T4 unlock, they will appear between 12th and 15th minute.
T-70 when rushed on good map control arrives around 8th-9th minute.
You need half the resources of T-70 to unlock them on life.
On preview you need a third.
That means you can get it 1-2 minutes earlier then you can get them on life.

Also, this is a lot of assumptions? I'm a top 1v1 player, I've experimented with it a lot, and in probably over 30~~ games used the early at-nade-Molo mobilize reserve rush. Even more bizarelly, thinking ostruppen have served their purpose by the 5th minute??? This is now how coh2 works. Ostruppen generally only become useless by the time 7men come out, in any other matchup they are still extremely strong because of their sandbags and their cover bonus. But 7men makes that completely useless

Then you are very well aware of timing when T3 can be put up and how long it takes to get 40 fuel vs 20 fuel.
Now, if you top players, are still mentally capable of building soviet T3 without pretending that T-70 with a build limit of 1 is the only thing it unlocks, I would advise you to check the reality and the timing to unlock 7th man through T3 instead of T4 on life.

You'll find something very interesting about 7man con timing-mainly, the fact that it arrives 20 fuel earlier on preview then life.

Jeez, I'm getting secondhand embarrassment from you. Please for the love of god actually play the preview before shitting up the thread.

You don't need 2nd hand embarrassments.
You're doing a good job all by yourself, like that HMG42 thing where you didn't knew how animations work and thought it doesn't traverse so yeah, pot, meet the kettle.

Just because you know how to drive car very well does not mean you know how the car actually works.

How is that wrong?
If you go for T4 unlock, they will appear between 12th and 15th minute.
T-70 when rushed on good map control arrives around 8th-9th minute.
You need half the resources of T-70 to unlock them on life.
On preview you need a third.
That means you can get it 1-2 minutes earlier then you can get them on life.


Then you are very well aware of timing when T3 can be put up and how long it takes to get 40 fuel vs 20 fuel.
Now, if you top players, are still mentally capable of building soviet T3 without pretending that T-70 with a build limit of 1 is the only thing it unlocks, I would advise you to check the reality and the timing to unlock 7th man through T3 instead of T4 on life.

You'll find something very interesting about 7man con timing-mainly, the fact that it arrives 20 fuel earlier on preview then life.


You don't need 2nd hand embarrassments.
You're doing a good job all by yourself, like that HMG42 thing where you didn't knew how animations work and thought it doesn't traverse so yeah, pot, meet the kettle.

Just because you know how to drive car very well does not mean you know how the car actually works.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/731338339076276249/786010315925094430/20201209002106_1.jpg

Reality check dipshit. Look at that six minutes in, a whole 6 more minutes, maybe 7 depending on when t4 is up. "MUH T70!!" doesn't matter if it comes one min late if your entire army core is by upgrading, better in every single range. Durability and far superior to anything your opponent can field.

Thanks for the laugh though.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/731338339076276249/786010315925094430/20201209002106_1.jpg

Reality check dipshit. Look at that six minutes in, a whole 6 more minutes, maybe 7 depending on when t4 is up. "MUH T70!!" doesn't matter if it comes one min late if your entire army core is by upgrading, better in every single range. Durability and far superior to anything your opponent can field.

Thanks for the laugh though.

And guess fucking what, it would arrive ONE FUCKING MINUTE LATER on CURRENT LIVE PATCH, because you STILL CAN FUCKING UPGRADE IT AT T3 at 20 more fuel due to need of molo and at nades.
Does it make that big of a difference?
NO because all you potatoes always ignored it for T-70 and weren't even aware how early it could arrive ALREADY.

And god fucking forbids you can't drop and roll over cons with volks and grens with no effort anymore.
THE FUCKING SKY IS FALLING! CONS HAVE A COMPETITIVE UPGRADE AT COMPETITIVE TIMING!

You guys should take a step back and read each other cause you are basically saying the same thing.

7 man cons at t3 + cost of mobilize means that the upgrade already comes later than any of the mainline weapon upgrades ingame...

usf and ukf can do it in 25 fuel...
ost takes 40 (bp1) + 10 fuel...
okw needs 50+15 (cost is reduced if they go bghq)
but sov takes a whopping 85+15+20 fuel...

thats more than double the fuel of every faction except okw... and even okw can at least rush it if they go bghq...

Just because you know how to drive car very well does not mean you know how the car actually works.

Just because you know how car works, doesnt mean that you can drive it, especially if you didnt do it in ages, if ever. Actually field knowlage and driving experience >>> then a paper sheet knowlage of how mechanics works.

Does it make that big of a difference?

It does if you count fuel and MP of molys and AT nades.

Moly cost - 85mp 10 fuel
AT nade - 125 mp 10 fuel
Reserves - 100 mp 20 fuel.

In live reserves cost you 310mp 40 fuel.
In patch, for comparison:
With AT nades, no moly - 15mp 10 fuel, considering savings from molly.
With Moly, no AT nades - 25mp saved 10 fuel, considering savings from AT.
Without AT\moly - 110mp saved and 0 fuel, considering savings from both moly and AT nades.

Also your 1-2 mins faster, its actually pretty big of a change in timing, considering how game is fast phased. And on top of that adding the time of upgrading inf with it, reinforcing it and potentually using savings of MP depending on what you've unlocked before.

THE FUCKING SKY IS FALLING! CONS HAVE A COMPETITIVE UPGRADE AT COMPETITIVE TIMING!

You've said it. Now we can finally nerf t70 to ground it belongs to

Everything Miragefla said about about ISU behind ZiS wall could be also said about Elefant/JT sitting behind Atlantic wall denying enemy tanks and even TD chance to push enemy away.

Somehow ISU countering infantry is bad, but Elefant/JT doing the exact same to vehicles is perfectly okay. The fact that JT also has a barrage and it's not touched in same patch ISU AI and ZiS barrage were nerfed is funny

Everything Miragefla said about about ISU behind ZiS wall could be also said about Elefant/JT sitting behind Atlantic wall denying enemy tanks and even TD chance to push enemy away.

Somehow ISU countering infantry is bad, but Elefant/JT doing the exact same to vehicles is perfectly okay. The fact that JT also has a barrage and it's not touched in same patch ISU AI and ZiS barrage were nerfed is funny

Yes because ISU cant counter vehicles, because all vehicle can cap points, because all vehicles can be one\two taped by Ele\JT, because Ele\JT can leave you without a unit you spend half of the game vetting in a few second, because damaging tank bleeds MP.

Also if you use barrage of JT against inf, you would see what a joke it is of an ability. And not a fun joke.

Everything Miragefla said about about ISU behind ZiS wall could be also said about Elefant/JT sitting behind Atlantic wall denying enemy tanks and even TD chance to push enemy away.

Somehow ISU countering infantry is bad, but Elefant/JT doing the exact same to vehicles is perfectly okay. The fact that JT also has a barrage and it's not touched in same patch ISU AI and ZiS barrage were nerfed is funny

I would imagine its because there is a marked difference between shooting tanks and shooting infantry. Without supporting fire you arent going to kill an expensive tank in one shot, whereas is is perfectly possible that you might be able to wipe an infantry squad with one HE, and if not you are able to cause significant bleed.

The Jagdtiger has what amounts to an artillery barrage ability, that costs munitions to use. It's not quite the same as the ISU being able to just switch to HE and obliterate infantry at will with autofire.

not a huge fan of the flat-out nerf to the isu-152's HE range, although i do understand the need and reasoning behind it. what in my opinion would have been a more creative solution is to tie its 70 range to an ability toggle, akin to hulldown for example, that limits or prevents movement and/or has some tearup or teardown associated to it. this way the 152 could retain its range advantage under certain conditions, but would also be easier to counter when caught off guard and require a bit more user input to be used to maximum effect.