RA is target size right?
If you look at all mainline infantry, allies vet up greatly reduce their target size.
while grens target size is unchanged. vetted cons ts is better than grens!
thus imo RA removal in vsl is bad nerf to a doctrine choice.
[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback
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29 Nov 2020, 05:28 AM
#101
Posts: 1794
29 Nov 2020, 05:49 AM
#102
Posts: 195
Panzer V Panther (OKW and Ostheer Variant)
Given the Panther's lackluster veterancy 2 bonuses and the unit's reliance on accurate shots over rate of fire, we are improving the accuracy of Panthers that have gained veterancy.
- Panther accuracy from 0.06/0.045/0.035 to 0.065/0.05/0.04
- Veterancy 2 now provides a +10% increased accuracy
Panthers are notorious for their bad accuracy. In crucial moments their blunders are common occurrence with them missing targets even stationary. Considering their unique role of 'tank hunters', diving into enemy lines and staying on the move, this slight accuracy increase is justified. Being failed by accuracy RNG in these situations typically means easy prey for AT elements as they overstretch their window of opportunity trying to chase reversing targets and missing . A veterancy bonus to accuracy is important as seeing even a veteran Panther miss so much is frustrating. It's a slight increase at any rate, not a major improvement. This is more of a usability case as I see it.
Note that it will be going up against Churchills and Fireflies that received slight improvements as well.
Previous Panther changes:
December 2017
Panzer V Panther
The Panther's veterancy has been adjusted to bring its scaling better in-line with its counterparts while improvements have been made to its rate of fire and MGs to help it achieve veterancy quicker and better fend off infantry assaults.
- Population from 16 to 18
- Reload time decreased from 5.8/6.7 to 5.2/5.6
- Hull and coaxial machine guns performance improved to OKW variant
- Veterancy 10% armor bonus removed
Panzer V Panther
The Panther has received adjustments to make it more accessible in 1v1 but less attractive to field groups of Panthers in team games due to increased fire on the move penalties and increased population.
- Fuel cost from 200 to 185
- Moving scatter from 1.7 to 2
- Moving accuracy from 0.65 to 0.5
- Population from 16 to 18
- Veterancy 4 range bonus removed
- Veterancy 5 sight bonus requires the tank to remain stationary
- Veterancy 2 armor bonus removed.
May 2018
PANTHER CHANGES
Both Panthers are being standardized in reload and accuracy to improve performance; the health bonus at veterancy 2 has been shifted to the unit’s stock performance to improve its survivability against tank destroyers. Now possibly in its best spot yet.
• Wehr Panther fuel cost from 175 to 185
• Wehr far accuracy increased from 0.03 to 0.035
• HP increase from 800 to 960 (all variants)
• Front armour reduced to 260
• Veterancy 2 +160 HP bonus replaced by +10% armour bonus
• OKW Panther reload from 6.1 - 6.4 to 5.2 - 5.6
• Rear armour reduced from 110 to 90 (all variants)
29 Nov 2020, 06:36 AM
#103
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
RA is target size right?
If you look at all mainline infantry, allies vet up greatly reduce their target size.
while grens target size is unchanged. vetted cons ts is better than grens!
thus imo RA removal in vsl is bad nerf to a doctrine choice.
Grens get damage reduction instead of target size bonus with vet. Against small arms it does the same thing, against explosives it's downright superior.
29 Nov 2020, 06:43 AM
#104
Posts: 1794
Grens get damage reduction instead of target size bonus with vet. Against small arms it does the same thing, against explosives it's downright superior.
iirc the small arms, aka vs infantry, is tad worse with the new reduce damage, but yes the reduced damages helps with rocket arty late game spamming.
but with the planned change to arty, perhaps we need to give back some RA to grens, at least with vsl doctrine.
29 Nov 2020, 08:53 AM
#105
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Obers are a late game arriving unit, expensive and generally see 1 or at most 2 of them.
We removed suppression capabilities from main lines for a reason (that 1 patch Grenadiers had passive suppression), Rifles 1919 and RET volley fire was nerfed into the ground.
I do have to point out that CD of Ober ability is ridiculous long while paras is ridiculous low, I guess one was not thinking about the vet 1 ability paras get.
29 Nov 2020, 08:59 AM
#106
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The problem here is you then break the early Conscript vs Grenadier match up. Grens do fairly well vs them early game, with Cons only winning if they have better cover or coming around the corner.
Which leads to, how do you buff Grenadiers without impacting a lot of other areas..
And that is why it not grenadiers that need to be buffed but the allied game play that need to be toned down.
Having that said grenadier vet 1 ability is bad so it should be replaced, maybe a he grenade to offer some protection from charging troops?
Or/and moving some received accuracy earlier and some of accuracy later in the vet bonuses?
29 Nov 2020, 09:31 AM
#107
Posts: 195
Having that said grenadier vet 1 ability is bad so it should be replaced, maybe a he grenade to offer some protection from charging troops?
I find that they are essential to keep Pak40s on the field with reinforcing by the 251 HT. If Pioneers became the sole source of on-field med-kits they would be overloaded on top of building fortifications and working with mines.
Med-Kits were redundant on PzGrenadiers and that changed already.
29 Nov 2020, 09:54 AM
#108
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I find that they are essential to keep Pak40s on the field with reinforcing by the 251 HT. If Pioneers became the sole source of on-field med-kits they would be overloaded on top of building fortifications and working with mines.
Med-Kits were redundant on PzGrenadiers and that changed already.
I find the ability rather bad. Takes time, locks infatry in to places, drains munition. Think grenadier would be better off with a better ability and maybe transport could use " ostheer medic kit" only on ATGs.
29 Nov 2020, 10:07 AM
#109
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
I find the ability rather bad. Takes time, locks infatry in to places, drains munition. Think grenadier would be better off with a better ability and maybe transport could use " ostheer medic kit" only on ATGs.
I don't think the ability is bad. Not having to retreat to base whenever your units are damaged is great, especially on big maps and when you are good at using green cover.
29 Nov 2020, 10:52 AM
#110
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I don't think the ability is bad. Not having to retreat to base whenever your units are damaged is great, especially on big maps and when you are good at using green cover.
well maybe bad is not the right word,maybe a luxury that can not be afforded. Maybe if it had very low or no cost.
Think is one has to spend so much mu early as Ostheer for bunker/lmg/FHT that the ability is only useful in late game. A HE grenade would be more helpful in early game imo.
29 Nov 2020, 11:44 AM
#111
2 
Posts: 538
LMG Grens (...)
- Giving their Kar98k's better accuracy against suppressed squads, from 50% to 75%, to promote combined arms play with the MG42 further.
lovely idea!
promoting combined arms...feeding the character of the faction.
Lovely.
give it a try!
Greetings from Nürnberg - always happy to increase our local COH pool for local events - more glory: Rankade ladder
29 Nov 2020, 13:15 PM
#112
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
But instead of theorizing I suggest that one actually tries to play aggressive without osttuppen/AssGre/5men gren and see what happens.
You mean the 300+ people in 2v2 who are better than you and don't crutch on terrible Osttruppen/Assgrens or OP 5man Grens?
I'm sure we've tried. Works like a charm.
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29 Nov 2020, 14:50 PM
#113
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Also, given ost T2 LV rush meta and how lethal it is especially against soviets who can do nothing without guards against it, perhaps its time to roll back 251 flamer cost change back to 120mun?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
29 Nov 2020, 14:52 PM
#114
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
its time to roll back 251 flamer cost change back to 120mun?
Not only that, the target size decrease buff should also be reverted for both Panzer IV variants. With the Panther accuracy buff it is time to even out the playing field so that the target size decrease wasn't just for 1 side only.
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29 Nov 2020, 15:10 PM
#115
Posts: 578
Look, I applaud the innovation with the panzerwerfer low barrage, but it's too strong. You're giving the werfer both its own strengths and the calliope's.
I'd like to see an AOE reduction on each rocket.
The suppression is also really strong; maybe allow 2 or 3 rockets to land before full suppression?
Talking about suppression, the bonus you're giving to S-mine suppression should kick in a bit sooner if you want an inattentive player to avoid losing too many models / being wiped.
I'd like to see an AOE reduction on each rocket.
The suppression is also really strong; maybe allow 2 or 3 rockets to land before full suppression?
Talking about suppression, the bonus you're giving to S-mine suppression should kick in a bit sooner if you want an inattentive player to avoid losing too many models / being wiped.
It's Relic's responsibility.
29 Nov 2020, 15:11 PM
#116
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Not only that, the target size decrease buff should also be reverted for both Panzer IV variants. With the Panther accuracy buff it is time to even out the playing field so that the target size decrease wasn't just for 1 side only.
You claim is factual wrong.
Allied TDs are far more accurate the Panther to begin with and get 3x times the bonus Panther gets.
29 Nov 2020, 15:16 PM
#117
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
You claim is factual wrong.
Allied TDs are far more accurate the Panther to begin with and get 3x times the bonus Panther gets.
Which is perfectly balanced by axis having a dedicated TDs against meds that do not have any accuracy issues and panther being much more durable and mobile then any allied TD.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
29 Nov 2020, 15:18 PM
#118
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
You claim is factual wrong.
Allied TDs are far more accurate the Panther to begin with and get 3x times the bonus Panther gets.
Panther starts with better accuracy. While Jackson and SU85 get accuracy bonuses, Panther gets turret and vehicle rotation and armour, while OKW Panther also gets +30% acceleration/deceleration (su85 gets 20% and is a casemate), -25% scatter and +25% moving accuracy.
Please refrain from criticizing others on stats when you didn't bother opening them to begin with.
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29 Nov 2020, 15:22 PM
#119
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Panther starts with better accuracy. While Jackson and SU85 get accuracy bonuses, Panther gets turret and vehicle rotation and armour, while OKW Panther also gets +30% acceleration/deceleration (su85 gets 20% and is a casemate), -25% scatter and +25% moving accuracy.
Please refrain from criticizing others on stats when you didn't bother opening them to begin with.
again factually wrong . Panther does not start with better accuracy, it has worse accuracy to begin with:
Su-85 Accuracy near 0.055 Accuracy mid 0.045 Accuracy far 0.04
Panther Accuracy near 0.06 Accuracy mid 0.045 Accuracy far 0.035
Pls check your stat before posting and:
"Please refrain from criticizing others on stats when you didn't bother opening them to begin with."
29 Nov 2020, 15:24 PM
#120
Posts: 578
Panther starts with better accuracy. While Jackson and SU85 get accuracy bonuses, Panther gets turret and vehicle rotation and armour, while OKW Panther also gets +30% acceleration/deceleration (su85 gets 20% and is a casemate), -25% scatter and +25% moving accuracy.
Please refrain from criticizing others on stats when you didn't bother opening them to begin with.
He's also comparing one axis TD to numerous allied ones, as if such a 1-to-many comparison has any merit whatsoever.
It's Relic's responsibility.
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