[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback
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28 Nov 2020, 14:15 PM
#61
Posts: 5
+1 for Vippers idea regarding spotting scopes. Elephants are relatively easy to use thanks to its sight. I would find it better if a second unit is needed to provide sight.
28 Nov 2020, 14:15 PM
#62
Posts: 1392
Also, I really would like to see Osttruppen be changed more. Remove the LMG42 and give them something else.
Also some new mechanic for Osttruppen, to make them more unique would be cool:
e.g.:
T3 adds a battle-upgrade for 60MP, for a passive "out-of-cover-bonus".
3sec. 0,9 received damage. (so they will not be so easy to fuk, incease their defensive role) Let them crouch while the bonus is active. + add 2nd weapon slot.
- reduce Faust range to Volks-Faust. Rename it to Faust-30 (Grenadier's Faust renamed to Faust-60, Volk's Faust renamed to Faust-30 as well)
- remove Vet1 heal. Instead give them 2*Mosin Nagant (Soviets Pio's stats).
- Vet2 add 1*PPSH (stats of Con's PPsh) 1*SVT-40 (stats of Penal's) added.
That would make Osttruppen more unique, while beeing better in lategame.
Also some new mechanic for Osttruppen, to make them more unique would be cool:
e.g.:
T3 adds a battle-upgrade for 60MP, for a passive "out-of-cover-bonus".
3sec. 0,9 received damage. (so they will not be so easy to fuk, incease their defensive role) Let them crouch while the bonus is active. + add 2nd weapon slot.
- reduce Faust range to Volks-Faust. Rename it to Faust-30 (Grenadier's Faust renamed to Faust-60, Volk's Faust renamed to Faust-30 as well)
- remove Vet1 heal. Instead give them 2*Mosin Nagant (Soviets Pio's stats).
- Vet2 add 1*PPSH (stats of Con's PPsh) 1*SVT-40 (stats of Penal's) added.
That would make Osttruppen more unique, while beeing better in lategame.
28 Nov 2020, 14:24 PM
#63
Posts: 3
+1 for Vippers idea regarding spotting scopes. Elephants are relatively easy to use thanks to its sight. I would find it better if a second unit is needed to provide sight.
I agree fully with this. With the new and upcoming winter balance patch the T34 ram gets nerfed (this if fully justified and should be nerfed) but this is indirectly a buff to the elephant because there is 1 less way to counter it. Removing the stuka bomming run would make a 17 pounder a more effective counter or a general nerf to the elephant like making the spotting scope a timed ability (and having the Wehrmacht rely more on combined arms) would be a good adjustment in my opinion.
28 Nov 2020, 14:41 PM
#64
Posts: 1794
Ok.
We also need to nerf Ostwind now that T-70 is nerfed.
Also nerf PaK, because ZiS is being nerfed.
This is exactly how balance works.
Because one is overpowered meta upgrade that makes unit do things its not supposed to be doing in extremely cost efficient way and another is late game, end of the tech upgrade that leaves you with bad infantry for the whole early and mid game.
Not a singular player in existence who knows how to play this game agrees.
Its doing away and its well deserved.
It was obvious its going away for a long time already.
disagree, a straight nerf is too much for a doctrine.
imo VSL becomes a issue because allies players chose not to adapt or not used to fighting toe to toe with grens.
allies have many counter to VSL doctrine. IS2/ISU152/KV8, Croc/AVRE, Rangers/Pershing. Ok maybe Usf gets it a bit tough. But goes to show a good infantry foundation helps, which allies have always enjoyed over Ost.
I think a fairer change is to increase VSL cost, +1cp swap with stormtroopers and increase to 70muni. This will push 5 men grens later in 1v1 while still allow all team games that Ost has enough staying power mid-late games.
28 Nov 2020, 18:59 PM
#66
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
disagree, a straight nerf is too much for a doctrine.
Not if doctrine is overpowered, which is exactly the case.
You literally see nothing else but VSL 2v2 and up and everywhere in 1v1 below top 5 ranks.
imo VSL becomes a issue because allies players chose not to adapt or not used to fighting toe to toe with grens.
Go adapt to T-70 and ram and ask for removal of nerfs.
allies have many counter to VSL doctrine. IS2/ISU152/KV8, Croc/AVRE, Rangers/Pershing. Ok maybe Usf gets it a bit tough. But goes to show a good infantry foundation helps, which allies have always enjoyed over Ost.
VSL is very early game upgrade.
EVERTYTHING you have mentioned is DOCTRINAL and VERY LATE GAME.
Put two and two together and even you will see that requiring super heavy AI tank to fight MAINLINE INFANTRY means something is horribly wrong with that infantry.
In fact, you have just made the best case possible on why VSL should be nerfed ASAP.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Nov 2020, 19:11 PM
#67
Posts: 1794
Not if doctrine is overpowered, which is exactly the case.
You literally see nothing else but VSL 2v2 and up and everywhere in 1v1 below top 5 ranks.
Go adapt to T-70 and ram and ask for removal of nerfs.
VSL is very early game upgrade.
EVERTYTHING you have mentioned is DOCTRINAL and VERY LATE GAME.
Put two and two together and even you will see that requiring super heavy AI tank to fight MAINLINE INFANTRY means something is horribly wrong with that infantry.
In fact, you have just made the best case possible on why VSL should be nerfed ASAP.
Ah no. I see similarities with vsl and rifles. As long you play more conservative with early rifles, vetted they pretty much rekt ost mainline
Then there is 5 man IS, shocks and rangers. Allies has more than enough to go h2h with vsl. Once allies armor arrive, vsl is going to struggle.
Imagine what ost player has to put up all the years. That's why we see more vsl now.
Again I feel straight nerf is too heavy. A delay is more fair
28 Nov 2020, 19:11 PM
#68
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Again I feel straight nerf is too heavy. A delay is more fair
It truly isn't fair that you need to cope so hard, you poor thing.
Imagine what ost player has to put up all the years
70+% win rates over most 1v1 tournaments since the death of the heavy tank meta?
Tragic.
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28 Nov 2020, 19:37 PM
#71
Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21
-Not sure if the Osttruppen change is enough (it will still arrive at same time the MG42 ends up finish building). And while u float mp for the 2nd one, you are still ahead in squads (say compare it to USF at that point they have 2 Rifles + 1 RE) and at the 107s of the match (it takes 1-2s to pick commander) you only delayed by 7s more or less the 3rd Ostrruppen (while say the USF is still half way through their 3rd Rifle) for a total of 3 Ost + Pio + MG42.
The fuel cost change barely pushes the upgrade later, cause you don't have enough mp (with Ost build) to push it when u have 40f.
-For suggestions which don't go too much further from what is presented:
--Rollback faust requirement back into T1
+1
Also poor 4 man grens getting no love this patch. LMG and G43 gren upgrades are still obsolete compared to 5 man grens/ostruppen/pgrens.
The meta will not change much.
28 Nov 2020, 20:53 PM
#73
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
+1
Also poor 4 man grens getting no love this patch. LMG and G43 gren upgrades are still obsolete compared to 5 man grens/ostruppen/pgrens.
The meta will not change much.
Meta units will be adjusted if necessary, but how would you buff LMG Grens:
early / mid / late game?
raw firepower / bleed / durability / scalability / utility?
The G43 upgrade won't be touched for now.
28 Nov 2020, 21:11 PM
#74
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Meta units will be adjusted if necessary, but how would you buff LMG Grens:
early / mid / late game?
raw firepower / bleed / durability / scalability / utility?
The G43 upgrade won't be touched for now.
I honestly think that problem is not with LMG grens, LMG grens as they are somewhat alright. Its overall perfomance of grenadiers which even holds LMG grens kinda back.
I would honestly rather make grens 250MP inf, and give them powerbuffs keeping survivability the same.
28 Nov 2020, 21:18 PM
#75
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Meta units will be adjusted if necessary, but how would you buff LMG Grens:
early / mid / late game?
raw firepower / bleed / durability / scalability / utility?
The G43 upgrade won't be touched for now.
The problem with Ostheer is that they are a defensive oriented faction and are terrible at attacking.
The changes making the pace of the game faster, the high lethality of allied infatry, the weaker mortars, the reduced shock value of PzIV and allied tech more accessible have amplified the problem.
That is why the have to use specific aggressive commanders like assault grenadiers, 5 men grenadiers/fast 250 or fast capping commander like ostruppen, in order to secure sector else they are simply strangled.
28 Nov 2020, 21:18 PM
#76
Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13
I honestly think that problem is not with LMG grens, LMG grens as they are somewhat alright. Its overall perfomance of grenadiers which even holds LMG grens kinda back.
I would honestly rather make grens 250MP inf, and give them powerbuffs keeping survivability the same.
The problem here is you then break the early Conscript vs Grenadier match up. Grens do fairly well vs them early game, with Cons only winning if they have better cover or coming around the corner.
Which leads to, how do you buff Grenadiers without impacting a lot of other areas..
28 Nov 2020, 21:20 PM
#77
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
LMG Grenadiers do not need a buff. Osttruppen and VSL Grenadiers need a nerf.
The formation change has helped LMG Grens quite a bit already.
The formation change has helped LMG Grens quite a bit already.
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28 Nov 2020, 21:25 PM
#78
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Stop power creep, don't buff grens, just keep nerfing osttruppen and VSL who power crept for too long.
One day people will find out what 251 is and what it does to grens.
One day people will find out what 251 is and what it does to grens.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Nov 2020, 21:25 PM
#79
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
The problem here is you then break the early Conscript vs Grenadier match up. Grens do fairly well vs them early game, with Cons only winning if they have better cover or coming around the corner.
Which leads to, how do you buff Grenadiers without impacting a lot of other areas..
Well power difference in inf combat between WFA and EFA was problem since WFA release. Maybe cons and grens should resive buffs to keep their match up the same and smooth powerdifference between factions a bit.
I mean cons vs volks do fairly well, with volks having upper hand aswell as sturmpios to prevent cons getting closer and afterwards volks get StGs which powerspikes them against cons drastically. Giving buffs to cons shouldnt break too much stuff, while allow giving some love to grens.
28 Nov 2020, 21:31 PM
#80
Posts: 97
I find it really strange that Pgrens don't get a nerf besides grenade cooldown at vet 3. Everyone can see that they overperform. Their overpowered bundlenade (for only 35 lmao) combined with their dps will almost guaranteed wipe an allied squad. The allied player cant do anything to counter that. even fullhealth retreat squads get wiped if you can time the grenade a little bit.
definitely a too strong combination and should definitely be looked at.
Sorry, but have you ever played Axis? I mean, have you ever heard of Mills Bomb? Or Gammon Bomb? Do you know Commandos or 6 men Shocktroops? Or maybe you have played USF, then you should know 6 men Airborne Rangers with Thompson and cooked 1 second grenade. I dont know if I should laugh or cry about you post, but it's definitely not serious, just a bad joke....
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