Will they address Panzergrens in the new patch?

Yeah I guess it makes sense. Considering that both assgrens and pio\mg builds work best against soviets. So it will actually affect only soviet match up without considerably touching match ups with other allied factions.

These strategies get hart countered by allied lV play

These strategies get hart countered by allied lV play

Yes, and? We aren't discussing counters to off meta strategies. We are discussing a way to tweak PGs.

How is that different from building from HQ? Since both of these buildings are up by BP1 and T1 building is free to build anything by that time? Am I missing something? T1 skips with dead osttruppen will be almost non existant now.

Requiring T2 building to be up actually delays a little (they can be left in HQ)

That is true and I should've explained this would be only a very minor change meant to make T1 skips less appealing in general. I guess it's less of a change with Ostruppen being put in T1 but as already discussed it makes it a none issue with AssGrens and Pio/MG builds.
Hell maybe if you do that you do something else to ostruppen? Put them in the HQ or something? They hopefully wouldn't be an issue since you can't get a super early PzGren and there is that bigger gap when you skip T1 and getting a LV.

That is true and I should've explained this would be only a very minor change meant to make T1 skips less appealing in general. I guess it's less of a change with Ostruppen being put in T1 but as already discussed it makes it a none issue with AssGrens and Pio/MG builds.
Hell maybe if you do that you do something else to ostruppen? Put them in the HQ or something? They hopefully wouldn't be an issue since you can't get a super early PzGren and there is that bigger gap when you skip T1 and getting a LV.

Something along these lines would be a slight but a nice change. Your idea moving PGs to T1 is also good imo.

Vet 1 also provides RA.

Reminder that vet requirements for each level from 1 to 3 have some sort of exponential growth. If it takes 10 XP to get to vet 1, then it takes 20XP to get vet2 and 40xp to get vet3.


I don't think PG are as much an issue compared to Prostruppen. As at least both Pio/Assault Grens have much more clear weaknesses (snare).

In team games you rarely see standard grens these days. It just makes so much more sense to spam support weapons into Pzgrens if your ally can cover mainline infantry.

Actually thinking about it, I think even requiring T2 building might be enough so that PGs don't compete with 222 for a build spot and yet get a bit delayed.

This is a solid idea right here

This is a solid idea right here

How? You end up with the same timing issue. Being able to build pgrens and light vehicles at the same time isn't a concern, its more being able to afford them back to back in this particular case. If both cant be purchased around the same time due to cost, then players are just going to go for the light vehicle.

Having pgrens require tier 1 or even being built in Tier 1 makes more sense for delaying them.

How? You end up with the same timing issue.

Excuse me? Do you have T2 building up the moment you get BP2 all the time? This idea makes it so you have to pull back your pios if you want to have fast PGs. You still might get them out almost at the same timing but you actually need to plan it now.

It's the T1 change that doesn't really do much since in 80% (pulled it out of my ass but I highly doubt it's lower than that) of the games OST has T1 anyway for grens and stuff.

Excuse me? Do you have T2 building up the moment you get BP2 all the time? This idea makes it so you have to pull back your pios if you want to have fast PGs. You still might get them out almost at the same timing but you actually need to plan it now.

It's the T1 change that doesn't really do much since in 80% (pulled it out of my ass but I highly doubt it's lower than that) of the games OST has T1 anyway for grens and stuff.

The timing issue i refer to is how long it takes to get pgrens out as well as how many resources you have once they are available to build them. The reason pgrens were not built before going to the HQ was two fold.

First, because of the additional time investment you couldn't afford to wait around for pgrens so you had to rely on a full force of grens or you would get swamped in terms of map control by the time your first pgren hit the field. And with 3-4 grens a pio and an mg42, you are not likely to want or need another infantry squad.

The second issue is that because of the cost of tier 2, you could either choose to get a pgren or a 222/251 but not both and the light vehicles have better shock value at the same timing so you just got a light vehicle instead. But if you skipped on your infantry in the early game and instead go for a pgren you lose the shock potential of your light vehicle which doesn't have a very large window to be uncontested.

By having tier 2 required you end up with the same issue as before. The only advantage is that if you've been banking resources like crazy (which you shouldn't) you'll be able to build a pgren AND a light vehicle simultaneously. But that was never an issue to begin with.

Pgrens are not really that big an issue.

On certain maps they can synergize extremely well with Ostuppen and there is no way to stop them arriving at 3.30. They can also work well with double mg, double pio but this is a more risky strat because flanked mgs have to retreat where as Ostruppen can stall. They also work well on certain maps but that can be said about all factions. They can also create perfect storm situations if by chance the ost player makes perfect positioning decisions but that is rare.

The other thing to consider is some allied players will make teching decisions that they shouldn't when it is obvious that pgren rush is in play. For example going 3 cons into T2 and then getting a maxim and a zis gun is not putting any pressure on ost map control or actively countering a fast pgren.

I think once Ostruppen get nerfed, there will be a knock on effect where pgren shock value is reduced.

Personally I think the biggest issue is the bundle grenade, so easy to get cheesy wipes. I would like to see that moved to vet or even replaced with a standard nade.

How? You end up with the same timing issue.

Yeah I don't agree that it was as much of an issue in the first place. Pgrens are good from the time they arrive to the end of the game, I really don't get why people need to be able to build them in the 3rd-4th minute

1v1 fitting them into a build order might of been a problem, but getting them in team games was never an issue

The timing issue i refer to is how long it takes to get pgrens out as well as how many resources you have once they are available to build them. The reason pgrens were not built before going to the HQ was two fold.

First, because of the additional time investment you couldn't afford to wait around for pgrens so you had to rely on a full force of grens or you would get swamped in terms of map control by the time your first pgren hit the field. And with 3-4 grens a pio and an mg42, you are not likely to want or need another infantry squad.

The second issue is that because of the cost of tier 2, you could either choose to get a pgren or a 222/251 but not both and the light vehicles have better shock value at the same timing so you just got a light vehicle instead. But if you skipped on your infantry in the early game and instead go for a pgren you lose the shock potential of your light vehicle which doesn't have a very large window to be uncontested.

By having tier 2 required you end up with the same issue as before. The only advantage is that if you've been banking resources like crazy (which you shouldn't) you'll be able to build a pgren AND a light vehicle simultaneously. But that was never an issue to begin with.

When you elaborate it like that it makes total sense. But if you require T1 building then you actually punish off meta strats (ass grens and 2pio\2mgs). And I do think that PGs timing against SOV is just too strong (other allied factions are fine). That's why this topic was started. So it's very tricky to come up with an elegant solution to this.

And this is all about 1v1. In team modes this is a non-issue imo.

When you elaborate it like that it makes total sense. But if you require T1 building then you actually punish off meta strats (ass grens and 2pio\2mgs). And I do think that PGs timing against SOV is just too strong (other allied factions are fine). That's why this topic was started. So it's very tricky to come up with an elegant solution to this.

And this is all about 1v1. In team modes this is a non-issue imo.

I agree for the most part.

Only thing is that tier 1+BP1 is cheaper then tier 2+BP2 so off meta builds would be better off with pgrens requiring(or built in) tier 1 then requiring(or built in) tier 2.

And I do think that PGs timing against SOV is just too strong (other allied factions are fine). That's why this topic was started. So it's very tricky to come up with an elegant solution to this.

And this is all about 1v1. In team modes this is a non-issue imo.

SOV doesn't struggle against Pgrens primarily since they 1) have the sniper and clown car, and 2) can easily control the map through greater numbers. What they struggle with is Ostruppen nullifying the early map control advantage they ought to be owed vs a teching enemy.

SOV doesn't struggle against Pgrens primarily since they 1) have the sniper and clown car, and 2) can easily control the map through greater numbers. What they struggle with is Ostruppen nullifying the early map control advantage they ought to be owed vs a teching enemy.

1) 222 comes literally a minute after PGs and murders both unless you got ptrs asap.
2) What greater numbers? You are going to have equal numbers if you didn't got any tech and less if you went T1.

1) 222 comes literally a minute after PGs and murders both unless you got ptrs asap.

T-70 comes a few minutes afterwards and murders everything too!

It's as if the game is some complex dance with tempo and trading of initiative!

2) What greater numbers? You are going to have equal numbers if you didn't got any tech and less if you went T1.

Pgrens are 340 manpower while conscripts and penals are 240 and 300 respectively. Pgrens also arrive later. SOV will always be able to build more infantry squads than OST can build Pgrens.

T-70 comes a few minutes afterwards and murders everything too!

It's as if the game is some complex dance with tempo and trading of initiative!



Pgrens are 340 manpower while conscripts and penals are 240 and 300 respectively. Pgrens also arrive later. SOV will always be able to build more infantry squads than OST can build Pgrens.

+effing 1, I feel like I've been the only person saying this

SOV doesn't struggle against Pgrens primarily since they 1) have the sniper and clown car, and 2) can easily control the map through greater numbers. What they struggle with is Ostruppen nullifying the early map control advantage they ought to be owed vs a teching enemy.

Clown car and sniper against OST in 1v1

You clearly don't play soviets against decent OST. By the time PGs come it's usually 1 engi 4 cons vs 1 pio, 3grens, MG + coming PG. What greater numbers are you talking about?