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Will they address Panzergrens in the new patch?

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31 Dec 2020, 07:58 AM
#161
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


How are you still repeating this? It's already been pointed out multiple times by different people why that comparison is completely flawed


You have to debate that with Elaindil not me

... Penals are the closest counterpart to PGs.


Point stands PG are too expensive investment, coming too late, facing vetted powerful infatry and vehicles by the time they hit the field at T2.

So people simply do not build them.
31 Dec 2020, 08:17 AM
#162
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2020, 07:58 AMVipper

You have to debate that with Elaindil not me

As was also pointed out by multiple people, you brought up the comparison before anyone else

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2020, 07:58 AMVipper

Point stands PG are too expensive investment, coming too late, facing vetted powerful infatry and vehicles by the time they hit the field at T2.

So people simply do not build them.

Yes I understand your opinion
31 Dec 2020, 08:36 AM
#163
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

...
Yes I understand your opinion

That is very constructive.

There are solution but it seem that simply moving PG back T2 it putting the problem under the rug instead of solving it.
31 Dec 2020, 08:46 AM
#164
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2020, 08:36 AMVipper

That is very constructive.

Calling out Elaindil and Fire and Terror was what exactly?

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2020, 08:36 AMVipper

There are solution but it seem that simply moving PG back T2 it putting the problem under the rug instead of solving it.

Can just as easily say that moving them earlier created new problems just to solve a new one. That seems pretty senseless to me
31 Dec 2020, 08:56 AM
#165
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1




Can just as easily say that moving them earlier created new problems just to solve a new one. That seems pretty senseless to me

Already respond to that:

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2020, 07:51 AMVipper

Moving them earlier was a mistake and same mistake as buffing Penal to 300 manpower power level unit. If there is room for 300 manpower power level unit at minute 0, there is room for a 340 manpower unit at minute 4.

This unit should not available that early or they should follow PF designed and arrive early at lower power level and have to upgrade to full potential.
....
The current time frames are very small and Power level of early units are too high to be able to fit these unit in properly.



But this less of problem when one is stock units and more of problem when using Ostruppen. And for some bizarre reason the mod team decided to kill Ostruppen.
31 Dec 2020, 09:02 AM
#166
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2020, 08:56 AMVipper

Already respond to that

Welcome to my world
31 Dec 2020, 09:36 AM
#167
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


I don't think that really matters. They are strong from the time they hit the field to the end of the match. Whether or not the buffs effected their new timing doesn't mean much


The implied line of thinking from a number of posters seems to be that pgrens at HQ would have been ok before the buffs they recieved. Im not saying pgrens are necessarily ok at the moment, but I am saying that the aforementioned argument is a flawed one.

That said I standby what I said, pgrens if moved back to tier 2 will suffer the same issues as they did before. And although pgrens are perhaps too strong at their current timing, I don't think they are oppressively so. Better they are slightly too strong then not used at all.


In regards to vipper's comparisons to penals, while I think that is a flawed comparison -given that penals require a "dead end tech" MP and fuel expenditure while pgrens don't- for their timing both units are strong. And truth be told, if penals were more spammable then it could be a problem, but in the early game its better to field a larger number of cheap squads then a few elite ones because map control is a thing. So I find penals more or less a non issue.
31 Dec 2020, 10:24 AM
#168
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2020, 05:10 AMgbem


T2 used to be more expensive back then... the argument doesnt necessarily hold since T2 is cheaper now...

in any case pgrens need taken a look at because they are OP in their current state...


The same patch that reduced t2 cost moved pgrens IIRC.


I was a big proponent for making pgrens accessible earlier at the time it happened. I actually wanted them to stay in t2, but this would have required other changes to keep the 222 at it's current timing.
31 Dec 2020, 10:36 AM
#169
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



The same patch that reduced t2 cost moved pgrens IIRC.


I was a big proponent for making pgrens accessible earlier at the time it happened. I actually wanted them to stay in t2, but this would have required other changes to keep the 222 at it's current timing.


yes which is why pgrens can be moved back to T2 and it probably wont be weak nor irrelevant...
31 Dec 2020, 10:43 AM
#170
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

Could someone please link a replay demonstrating that Pgrens are OP?

One without ostruppen as those are already being nerfed.

Simply ignoring the arguments for their current position only betrays a complete lack of substance to the "PGRENS ARE OP GUYZ!!!!!!111" side.

OST was completely absent from tourneys prior to their buff, and was markedly absent even after their buff until ostruppen became meta/ VSL. Both of these metas of course demonstrate that 4 men grens are drastically UP.
31 Dec 2020, 10:48 AM
#171
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Could someone please link a replay demonstrating that Pgrens are OP?

Just open literally any stream with anyone playing 1v1 as ost with osttruppen opening.

One without ostruppen as those are already being nerfed.

Osttruppen still do work.
They are just not as overpowering as they were, but that strat is toned down, not killed off.

Simply ignoring the arguments for their current position only betrays a complete lack of substance to the "PGRENS ARE OP GUYZ!!!!!!111" side.

Well, they did received a numerous vet improvements and adjustments that make them much more potent much earlier then old ones did and there still is a possibility they crept too strong too early, preview games with average players aren't going to show that unless all the tops hop in to contribute.

OST was completely absent from tourneys prior to their buff, and was markedly absent even after their buff until ostruppen became meta.

And now its a faction with highest winrate.
We won't see how big of a factor osttruppen alone were(they they were significant one) until patch hits live and more good players put hands on it.
31 Dec 2020, 11:35 AM
#172
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2020, 10:48 AMKatitof

Osttruppen still do work.
They are just not as overpowering as they were, but that strat is toned down, not killed off.


Wait was the goal killing off ostruppen? Or was the goal toning them down?


Well, they did received a numerous vet improvements and adjustments that make them much more potent much earlier then old ones did and there still is a possibility they crept too strong too early, preview games with average players aren't going to show that unless all the tops hop in to contribute.


They had 16% of vet3 accuracy shifted to vet 2. This is nothing compared to 7 man conscripts, rifelman mid range buff, and section out-of cover buffs which have all occurred afterwards or in the same patch.


And now its a faction with highest winrate.
We won't see how big of a factor osttruppen alone were(they they were significant one) until patch hits live and more good players put hands on it.


Do you have data for this? I can't find anything within the past 6 months.
31 Dec 2020, 14:04 PM
#173
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97

Could someone please link a replay demonstrating that Pgrens are OP?



Can you point out where anyone called PGrens OP? It's their timing that's seems OP not the unit itself if you actually read the topic.

Most people here that are saying that their timing is OP are fine with just moving them to T2 without any changes to the unit itself. (me included)

And all of this is because soviets struggle very hard against PGs since they have nothing to rival them when they come so early. Other allied factions don't have nearly as much trouble dealing with PGs.

31 Dec 2020, 14:07 PM
#174
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97

Actually thinking about it, I think even requiring T2 building might be enough so that PGs don't compete with 222 for a build spot and yet get a bit delayed.
Pip
31 Dec 2020, 14:48 PM
#175
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Dec 2020, 04:35 AMSerrith


Pretty much this. Plus none of the buffs they recieced directly helps them at their new timing.

The reason nobody bought them was because they arrived at a time when you couldn't afford to skimp on early game infantry squads like grens so you ended up having 4 grens and not really room to buy pgrens. The added mp cost of having to buy tier 2 first meant that you could either pick up a pgren or get a light vehicle and light vehicles have greater shock value.

Imo moving them back to tier 2 would just cause the same issues as before.


This is sort of the issue I have with current OKW, and their Obersoldaten.
31 Dec 2020, 15:18 PM
#176
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515


Welcome to my world


Arguing with General V is like talking to a wall. Just don't.
PGrens are fine IMHO. Even at their current timing. Never had any problems dealing with them early on in teamgames. And that's 3v3 so it's basically 1v1 in each lane where one MG42 and Pgrens can do wonders behind cover. Basically you need to flank around your teammates "lane" to get to MG42 because of it's wide arc, so pios + MG42 + pgrens can usually do wonders vs USF. Still, never had any problems with that. I think most of the imbalance comes from the map design and strong building points. Eg, sturmpios entering a strong building as a starting unit or MG42 doing the same.
31 Dec 2020, 15:19 PM
#177
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356



Can you point out where anyone called PGrens OP? It's their timing that's seems OP not the unit itself if you actually read the topic.

Most people here that are saying that their timing is OP are fine with just moving them to T2 without any changes to the unit itself. (me included)

And all of this is because soviets struggle very hard against PGs since they have nothing to rival them when they come so early. Other allied factions don't have nearly as much trouble dealing with PGs.



COH2 could be the most balanced game in history if only the team would delay all units by an hour. Nothing is OP, it just comes too early.
31 Dec 2020, 17:48 PM
#178
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 133

Why not just move PzGrens to T1 (and still require BP1 ofc)? That deals with problems they cause in T1 skips and otherwise doesn't really effect them. They would still be quite strong but you at the very least make their fastest timing a bit slower.
31 Dec 2020, 18:16 PM
#179
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97

Why not just move PzGrens to T1 (and still require BP1 ofc)? That deals with problems they cause in T1 skips and otherwise doesn't really effect them. They would still be quite strong but you at the very least make their fastest timing a bit slower.


How is that different from building from HQ? Since both of these buildings are up by BP1 and T1 building is free to build anything by that time? Am I missing something? T1 skips with dead osttruppen will be almost non existant now.

Requiring T2 building to be up actually delays a little (they can be left in HQ)
Pip
31 Dec 2020, 18:22 PM
#180
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594



How is that different from building from HQ? Since both of these buildings are up by BP1 and T1 building is free to build anything by that time? Am I missing something? T1 skips with dead osttruppen will be almost non existant now.

Requiring T2 building to be up actually delays a little (they can be left in HQ)


I agree that it wouldnt be a terribly meaningful change... but there are still niche strategies that lean on Pioneers and MG42s that don't require tier one.
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