Future Balance Items by Relic

I've said plenty of times that T70 are too cheap. Their cost should be increased.
But yes, two T70 should rape Pgrens, and one lone T70 well microed should rape PGrens too.
You shouldn't go NEVER with a single infantry unit against an AI tank.



People makes T70 specifically to counter PGs as they are an infantry hardcounter.
Why do you insist in that you want to kill T70s with infantry?

As someone pointed above, Ostheer have plenty of hard and soft counters, but you insist and insist in that you want to kill them with your shreck PGrens.
Damn, just retreat or garrison a house and wait for your T3 units support. Or ambush it with grens!! Even the most pro player can't see into the fog of war.

Is as if you wanted to see in T70 a unit that fills the same role of vCoH units like M8 or PE AC. But by design and tier placement T70 is more like a mini-Ostwind, with less armor and hit points, reflected in its lower price but with the same AI capabilities.

Nerfing T70 even more will make the unit useless when Soviet Industry got patched, because if they can't even kill infantry properly there's no reason to go T70 instead of T34.

Forcing ostheer to build stugs to counter t70s means ostheer is set back on fuel when su 85s come rolling. Why not make the p4 cost 200 fuel to encourage ostheer to build more tigers to counter su 85s? [...]

If you see T-70 in 1v1 then you shouldn't expect SU-85 at all.

If you see T-70 in 1v1 then you shouldn't expect SU-85 at all.

And StuG does a good damage to T34 and T70 too, and can kill them easily face to face.

But they just want save fuel for PzIV because it is better killing everything, even if that means leaving their infantry whitour armored support to be raped by the infamous OPed T70s.

I'm comparing a T2 unit (PGren) against a later T3 tank specialized in dealing with infantry. People make T70 to deal with infantry blobs. It will be stupid that one upgrade would make these infantry their hard counter.

Furthermore I don't know why you insist in placing Ostwind as late game tank and T70 as early tank. T70 usually appears no much before than Stugs, Ostwinds or PzIVs, specially if the soviet player bought molos and Atnades .
T70 shares Tier with these units which they all are hard counters to it.

The issue here is whitout doubt Soviet Industry, which widens the gap between tiers and rush soviet T3 when ostheer still have T2 and without ammo to purchase soft counters like the shreck.

I was using your vcoh example. IN coh, OStwind was t4 and t4 was late if you could even get there. The t70, even in t3 with the coh2 ostwind, still comes out very early because of t70's low cost. This whole change of changing t3 to mbts f'd up the smooth flow of the battle, which makes ostheer having no light armor even more difficult

Forcing ostheer to build stugs to counter t70s means ostheer is set back on fuel when su 85s come rolling. Why not make the p4 cost 200 fuel to encourage ostheer to build more tigers to counter su 85s?

This is the problem I have with the disparity between the Soviets and ostheer. 700+mp and 120 muntions and a hope is needed to just scare away a t70. Why doesn't ostheer also have light armor, instead of having to overmatch a cheap and early to field wtf kill machine. With expensive mines, forced purchase of 2 shreks, expensive pak (compared to vcoh, low effectiveness and long build time, low survivability) taking on one t70 is a challenge, but 2 or 3 takes the bulk of your army to deal with, barring you having tanks.

First, do you mean set back on fuel when t34s start rolling?...cuz the t70 precludes the su85.

My point is that t70 doesn't even force the "oh shit" choice of a stug, presently. I know the ostheer gets more bang for his buck if he gets the p4, but if he were getting so owned on the field and losing so many units, it would be worth it for him to prevent that and get a stug, which will also effectively combat the t34 that rolls out a minute to a minute and a half later. Apparently things just aren't that dire.

Actually, I think that if they costed up the p4 by 10, they could also relent on some of the ant-tank power they gave the t34 a couple patches ago.

So that would be an increase of 10 fuel for the p4, a decrease in t70 anti-infantry effectiveness(as well as sk222s), and a decrease in t34 anti-tank effectiveness. Sounds fair to me.

You're also suggesting that 700 manpower and 120 muni is burned to combat this vehicle. Its hardly burned. Its invested, and it allows you to hold your fuel and get out your hard counter. Both units function plenty well into the late game.

I've said plenty of times that T70 are too cheap. Their cost should be increased.
But yes, two T70 should rape Pgrens, and one lone T70 well microed should rape PGrens too.
You shouldn't go NEVER with a single infantry unit against an AI tank.




People makes T70 specifically to counter PGs as they are an infantry hardcounter.
Why do you insist in that you want to kill T70s with infantry?

As someone pointed above, Ostheer have plenty of hard and soft counters, but you insist and insist in that you want to kill them with your shreck PGrens.
Damn, just retreat or garrison a house and wait for your T3 units support. Or ambush it with grens!! Even the most pro player can't see into the fog of war.

Is as if you wanted to see in T70 a unit that fills the same role of vCoH units like M8 or PE AC. But by design and tier placement T70 is more like a mini-Ostwind, with less armor and hit points, reflected in its lower price but with the same AI capabilities.

Nerfing T70 even more will make the unit useless when Soviet Industry got patched, because if they can't even kill infantry properly there's no reason to go T70 instead of T34.

2 problems with retreat, is that if it is a long way, T70 kills the fleeing unit and potentially forces shrek drop. Another is that if a single unit can reliably force away PG's then how can I expect to hold the field?

If grens do ambush they cannot kill the T70, they can only injure it for munitions and manpower bleed.

What if I am not near a house, what do I garrison? Do you want to restrict the German to remain near houses?

Ost forces inf to keep distance, which is what it is supposed to do. T70 has another role, not that of ost. Hit hard and hit fast, then get out of their fast.

In addition, what other early counters do Germans have to T70?

Mines- Too expensive must sacrifice other upgrades or fausts, not guaranteed kill
222- too little health now
Paks- miss frequently, although they often only get 1 shot off anyway
P4- comes out too late, what happens if German cannot get P4?
Stug- can actually be circle strafed by T70, German must give up AI capabilities, comes out latter
PG-large munition cost upgrade, what if I don't have it?, huge mp bleed, lower AI capabilities

I can think of no others. If you won't make PG's better against the T70, the pak must be more reliable. The pak in vCOH could always force away the armored car if it could fire at range. Right now the pak cannot reliable push back a t70, so I must rely on PG's.

PG's should stop T70's because that is what they are designed to do. Although PG's have strong AT capabilities they get riskier to use as game progresses as soviets unlock better AI tanks that can one shot squads. If they cannot be used early game to reliably counter light tanks and build up vet to deal with heavier tanks, there is a problem. If you are facing PG's with shreks you should have map control because he gave up AI capabilities and you should then invest in a T34.

T70 was not useless before soviet industry, it will not be after. You are not using it correctly if you think it was useless before soviet industry. Soviet industry allowed the exploitation of a broken unit in a more broken manner.

2 problems with retreat, is that if it is a long way, T70 kills the fleeing unit and potentially forces shrek drop. Another is that if a single unit can reliably force away PG's then how can I expect to hold the field?

If grens do ambush they cannot kill the T70, they can only injure it for munitions and manpower bleed.

What if I am not near a house, what do I garrison? Do you want to restrict the German to remain near houses?

Ost forces inf to keep distance, which is what it is supposed to do. T70 has another role, not that of ost. Hit hard and hit fast, then get out of their fast.

In addition, what other early counters do Germans have to T70?

Mines- Too expensive must sacrifice other upgrades or fausts, not guaranteed kill
222- too little health now
Paks- miss frequently, although they often only get 1 shot off anyway
P4- comes out too late, what happens if German cannot get P4?
Stug- can actually be circle strafed by T70, German must give up AI capabilities, comes out latter
PG-large munition cost upgrade, what if I don't have it?, huge mp bleed, lower AI capabilities

I can think of no others. If you won't make PG's better against the T70, the pak must be more reliable. The pak in vCOH could always force away the armored car if it could fire at range. Right now the pak cannot reliable push back a t70, so I must rely on PG's.

PG's should stop T70's because that is what they are designed to do. Although PG's have strong AT capabilities they get riskier to use as game progresses as soviets unlock better AI tanks that can one shot squads. If they cannot be used early game to reliably counter light tanks and build up vet to deal with heavier tanks, there is a problem. If you are facing PG's with shreks you should have map control because he gave up AI capabilities and you should then invest in a T34.

T70 was not useless before soviet industry, it will not be after. You are not using it correctly if you think it was useless before soviet industry. Soviet industry allowed the exploitation of a broken unit in a more broken manner.

pak and zis should be more reliable against light vehicles. It's bad when they miss, its really bad when they miss twice. Maybe some sort of modifier that kicks in after a miss if they shoot at the same light vehicle twice. Second shot get a greatly improved accuracy. Of course that change does nothing for paks that may only get to get in one shot against a t70.

I might have missed the comment that said t70 was useless before the industry ability. I think the concern is that it could be made too sketchy in value for the risk if it is made less effective at killing infantry.

Nerfing T70 even more will make the unit useless when Soviet Industry got patched, because if they can't even kill infantry properly there's no reason to go T70 instead of T34.

Not sure if this was over exaggeration or not, but this is what I was responding to directly.

Important difference:
A halftrack can actually take damage to small arms fire. So even without hard Anti tank on the field, it's still possible to keep it away from you. It's requirement to be at close range to do damage (making at 'nades much easier to get off) and its lack of mobility make it much harder to harass infantry all through the map.

A T70 is nearly invulnerable to small arms fire. And unlike the flame haltrack, works surprisingly well at sniping German models from long range. It has very good maneuverability which makes it quite effective at keeping distance from Grens getting of a panzerfaust. Even if it does, it has a convenient self-repair ability to get it right moving again without the need for combat engineers to march over.

Additionally, soviets have access to guards rifles (quite an effective counter to the halftrack) which can avoid investing in t2 for a ZiS gun.

A t70 with a damaged engine will still outrun a squad trying to faust it. Comparing a halftrack to a t70 is nothing beyond ludicrous.

Jump back to quoted post22 Nov 2013, 21:21 PMGreeb

Nerfing T70 even more will make the unit useless when Soviet Industry got patched, because if they can't even kill infantry properly there's no reason to go T70 instead of T34.

Not sure if this was over exaggeration or not, but this is what I was responding to directly.

Before Soviet Industry, going T70 was a risky strategy because you won't have SU85 then, and probably only a T34 (at best) when your enemy first PzIV appears.

So T70 was an option only viable when you had the fuel advantage and tried to win the match taking advantage from the small gap of time between the aparition of your T70 and the apparition of your enemy first T3 tank.

If you couldn't win in that interval, then you were fucked. For doing that, T70 should be very effective against infantry. Even so, you needed very good micro to achieve that, because T70 could still get destroyed very easily.

Now, with Soviet Industry all of that is rubbish, because you can spam T34s right after your T70 and doesn't matter if one of them is destroyed. But when the situation reverts we will be back to the previous stage.

So, if you nerf T70 now and you are unable to kill enemy infantry in the few minutes T70 has unmatched, then I don't see any reason to make one instead T34, which has good IA capabilities too and can face enemy armor for only 30 fuel more.

And remember the list of nerfs that unit has had:

- Now it can't run over infantry.
- Unit size changed.
- Soon: Scatter increased.
- Repair ability useless since faust's buff.

I don't think such unit can withstand more nerfs.

Before Soviet Industry, going T70 was a risky strategy because you won't have SU85 then, and probably only a T34 (at best) when your enemy first PzIV appears.

So T70 was an option only viable when you had the fuel advantage and tried to win the match taking advantage from the small gap of time between the aparition of your T70 and the apparition of your enemy first T3 tank.

If you couldn't win in that interval, then you were fucked. For doing that, T70 should be very effective against infantry. Even so, you needed very good micro to achieve that, because T70 could still get destroyed very easily.

Now, with Soviet Industry all of that is rubbish, because you can spam T34s right after your T70 and doesn't matter if one of them is destroyed. But when the situation reverts we will be back to the previous stage.

So, if you nerf T70 now and you are unable to kill enemy infantry in the few minutes T70 has unmatched, then I don't see any reason to make one instead T34, which as good IA capabilities too and can face enemy armor for only 30 fuel more.

And remember the list of nerfs that unit has had:

- Now it can run over infantry.
- Unit size changed.
- Soon: Scatter increased.
- Repair ability useless since faust's buff.

I don't think such unit can withstand more nerfs.

This is very well written. If the T70 is nerfed too much, people will just stop building them. Especially when the T34 does a lot of what it does only better. With a lot of these proposed nerfs, I can see the T70 going unused. The T70 needs to have some advantage over the T34 if it to remain a viable choice.

Personally, never use the damn things anyway. They delay the T34s too much and are easily destroyed by anything with a cannon.

@Greeb

Okay, the first change for the T-70 was required, the 2nd could have been solved by target tables, but it was kinda a problem that paks couldn't hit the T-70 reliably

I don't think Scatter should be increased and the 4th change is probably unnecessary, so yeah, the T-70 could be nerfed until it can't be used ><

As annoying as T-70s are in terms of sniping retreating infantry, I don't believe it deserves the nerf bat that much.

because making vehicles,infantry and teching cost more so that the early game would last longer and transitioning into a tech tree would be a testament of skill and intelligence instead of spamming conscripts with molies to rush t70's and t-34s or spamming grens in hope of holding your fuel and harrasing the soviet fuel to get a stug or piv out as fast as possible to survive the mid game would be too much of a bother for the people that balance this god forsaken game....

I've said plenty of times that T70 are too cheap. Their cost should be increased.
But yes, two T70 should rape Pgrens, and one lone T70 well microed should rape PGrens too.
You shouldn't go NEVER with a single infantry unit against an AI tank.



People makes T70 specifically to counter PGs as they are an infantry hardcounter.
Why do you insist in that you want to kill T70s with infantry?

As someone pointed above, Ostheer have plenty of hard and soft counters, but you insist and insist in that you want to kill them with your shreck PGrens.
Damn, just retreat or garrison a house and wait for your T3 units support. Or ambush it with grens!! Even the most pro player can't see into the fog of war.

Is as if you wanted to see in T70 a unit that fills the same role of vCoH units like M8 or PE AC. But by design and tier placement T70 is more like a mini-Ostwind, with less armor and hit points, reflected in its lower price but with the same AI capabilities.

Nerfing T70 even more will make the unit useless when Soviet Industry got patched, because if they can't even kill infantry properly there's no reason to go T70 instead of T34.

no,they make the 5 minute t70 in hope of an easy win becasue they know,if they know because some just do it because players like vonivan do it,the ost player would over invvest in tier 1 to hold his territory and his pgrens with shreks and or pak(and by pak i mean the joke counter to a t70) wouldn't be out by then and send the first and second t70 straight into the enemy base to destroy the t2 building before at is built...that's the real problem....and no,you won't fucking faust the t70 if your enemy has half of a brain because their idea of balance is that a conscript can throw a 2 kg AT grenade further than a trained german soldier can shoot a shoulder fired rocket proppeled grenade

As annoying as T-70s are in terms of sniping retreating infantry, I don't believe it deserves the nerf bat that much.

I personally think that the issue is with retreating infantry in general, not only the ones chased by a T70.

Units retreating should have a slight defense buff. Specially since input lag and stupid hmg pick up moves makes retreating as risky as staying in the front.

T70 was overperforming even before the patch and Commanders.

The scatter change sounds good, but it may not be enough.

And StuG does a good damage to T34 and T70 too, and can kill them easily face to face.

But they just want save fuel for PzIV because it is better killing everything, even if that means leaving their infantry whitour armored support to be raped by the infamous OPed T70s.

the T70 as a vehicle isn't op,it used to be with the crush and laser like accuracy while chasing units on retreat and hitting every time,but it is too cheap,both as man power and fuel

no,they make the 5 minute t70 in hope of an easy win becasue they know [...]

If you are talking about a player using Soviet Industry, then yes. It's OP and you can't do nothing to win without a good amount of luck.

If you are talking about a player without Soviet Industry, then you got overplayed if he can have 2 T70 whitout you having resources for a imminent StuG.

wouldn't be out by then and send the first and second t70 straight into the enemy base to destroy the t2 building before at is built...

That's impossible without Soviet Industry commander.

And even so, it is common sense that you always should mine the entrance of your base. ALWAYS.
Even if that means one lmg less for your grens. Even more if you expect T70 rush.

the T70 as a vehicle isn't op,it used to be with the crush and laser like accuracy while chasing units on retreat and hitting every time,but it is too cheap,both as man power and fuel

Yes, it should be more expensive, at least regardind manpower.

And I would prefer a defensive bonus for units retreating in general, instead of nerfing T70. But we still have to see how it performs with the incoming scatter increase.

And even so, it is common sense that you always should mine the entrance of your base. ALWAYS.
Even if that means one lmg less for your grens. Even more if you expect T70 rush.

That may be the csse in 2v2+ but it certainly isnt in 1v1.