I honestly think that the balance is going to be in a very dangerous state. Ostruppen/5man are imbalanced BS. Obviously but the larger issue is that normal grens simply arent playable in any way. The call in infantry is crutches to make the faction playable. What will happen when normal grens go up against vetted rifles with two bars. They'll get their shitstomped.
First Quarter 2021 Balance Patch
25 Nov 2020, 08:47 AM
#61
Posts: 570 | Subs: 1
25 Nov 2020, 09:18 AM
#62
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I honestly think that the balance is going to be in a very dangerous state. Ostruppen/5man are imbalanced BS. Obviously but the larger issue is that normal grens simply arent playable in any way. The call in infantry is crutches to make the faction playable. What will happen when normal grens go up against vetted rifles with two bars. They'll get their shitstomped.
And that is part of the reason why early allied infatry should be toned down (along with changes to ostturppen/5 gren). Grenadier are struggling and now VGs also start to straggle.
25 Nov 2020, 09:40 AM
#63
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
What will happen when normal grens go up against vetted rifles with two bars.
They’ll have to use positioning to keep distance and combined arms to win. 5man Grens and Osttruppen will also be options, toned down from the current OP state into a balanced state so that it’s fair.
Ostheer will be in an excellent spot after 5man Grens and Osttruppen merfs, as well as hopefully a Pgren move back to T2 and the nerf to T1 skip builds.
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25 Nov 2020, 10:10 AM
#64
Posts: 112
They’ll have to use positioning to keep distance and combined arms to win. 5man Grens and Osttruppen will also be options, toned down from the current OP state into a balanced state so that it’s fair.
Ostheer will be in an excellent spot after 5man Grens and Osttruppen merfs, as well as hopefully a Pgren move back to T2 and the nerf to T1 skip builds.
I like the idea of 5man grens. I think the weapon-team focus of Ost could still hold up with kar98 stat nerfs. They should still be the weakest mainline, at least offensively so while the extra man makes them more durable they should still need a heavy weapon team to decisively win an even fight.
So extra model but total firepower with all models the same.
Fix the unit, don't go after every other mainline in the game for the sake of 4-man faction flavor and cause a butterfly effect. The weapon-team focus can be maintained with 5man.
Mostly tommies just need their utility clipped
- Remove medkits once the medic squad bug is fixed
- Move Gammon bombs to Royal Engineers
25 Nov 2020, 10:16 AM
#65
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
And you can't imagine that coh3 couldn't simply be an enhanced coh2? I don't know if Relic or Microsoft are willing to build a new game from scratch when they can simply take back the development on coh2 and build around it.
As we know the RTS community is small and anything that can reduce the development cost will greatly help to have something at the end.
THe 64bit development for coh2 and release of coh1 on mobile show that Relic or Microsoft are willing to continue the COH franchise's adventure but not from a new perspective. They'll take what they already have in stock and use it to propose to their audience new contents or find new audience on different supports.
They already have a great engine that need a serious polishing (we all agree on that), what they lacked in the past was a game design and community vision. And from a year or two they're starting to acquire both of them, they used us to learn to build a game design that suit us as players (community patches) and put in place the elements to build a community and provide relevant content to it (championship, tourney etc...)
I'm curious to see what they'll propose, and if I'm right about their on-going strategy.
Never say never, but I think this is just very unlikely. Getting the 'CoH3' experience would require a seriius development team, but everyone has been pulled from the CoH franchise. We can see similar things with the AoE series: these have mostly been remasters without too much reworks of the engine, yet a complete dev team was needed.
CoH2 already had its free give aways, many people that wNted to play it already got their chance and either stuck with it or did not. Unless the game pass can do a small miracle, there will not be that huge new player spike and thus no revenue spike for Relic/MS.
That's at least my theory, but let's just see what the future will bring.
25 Nov 2020, 10:17 AM
#66
Posts: 570 | Subs: 1
They’ll have to use positioning to keep distance and combined arms to win. 5man Grens and Osttruppen will also be options, toned down from the current OP state into a balanced state so that it’s fair.
Ostheer will be in an excellent spot after 5man Grens and Osttruppen merfs, as well as hopefully a Pgren move back to T2 and the nerf to T1 skip builds.
Thats hogwash lol and is extremely theoretical. What will happen in practice is this: anytime you go up against any infantry that has any decent vet and or upgrade (though many cases already exist where the enemy having neither will still result in you losing." Barring max range will force you to concede ground ans retreat. Good luck supressing 4 hell sometimes 5 rifle squads (LT+Cpt). Good luck pushing when you cant make sandbags and they can. Hell it gets even better. Lategame you get zoned out because your vehicles dont have the wipe potenial of your opponents.
Grens are fucking worthless and have no value. Any decent player knows this which is why everyone and their mother go for something that isnt vanilla grens.
Oh well. Okw/assgren meta here we fucking go again.
25 Nov 2020, 11:18 AM
#67
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Thats hogwash lol and is extremely theoretical. What will happen in practice is this:
With all due respect, it’s theoretical for you, not me. In more than 15 games with these changes (Removed RA bonus from 5men, Osttruppen timing nerfs, T1 skip nerfs) on miragefla’s mod with him and other lv17-19 players in 1s and 2s we extensively tested the Ostheer changes and found the faction to be in an excellent spot after them.
These conclusions are not absolutely perfect, but are certainly much better than theoretical predictions.
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25 Nov 2020, 11:26 AM
#68
Posts: 1515
And that is part of the reason why early allied infatry should be toned down (along with changes to ostturppen/5 gren). Grenadier are struggling and now VGs also start to straggle.
Not really. Grens lose medium/short range. As they should. The whole idea behind OST early is to use pios sight bonus combined with arc/range of MG42. 5 man grens are an option if you want to play grens early on the same as you would play rifles/ISs. Ostruppen are just spammable and quite decent behind cover (for their price/reinforce value of 16). 5 man grens are not that OP tbh. They are a bit cancerous to play against but they are doctrinal. Come late game, LMG grens become more than enough with vet to hold ground against assaulting rifles and ISs. And if you need to assault, the plethora of great tanks combined with PGrens can do the trick. Same as how USF relies on smoke + rifles to assault positions and the reply to that is the werfer or PGrens bundle nade.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
25 Nov 2020, 11:29 AM
#69
Posts: 1515
Thats hogwash lol and is extremely theoretical. What will happen in practice is this: anytime you go up against any infantry that has any decent vet and or upgrade (though many cases already exist where the enemy having neither will still result in you losing." Barring max range will force you to concede ground ans retreat. Good luck supressing 4 hell sometimes 5 rifle squads (LT+Cpt). Good luck pushing when you cant make sandbags and they can. Hell it gets even better. Lategame you get zoned out because your vehicles dont have the wipe potenial of your opponents.
Grens are fucking worthless and have no value. Any decent player knows this which is why everyone and their mother go for something that isnt vanilla grens.
Oh well. Okw/assgren meta here we fucking go again.
So you're going against a blob of 5 infantry squads and you have no MG42 to insta pin, PGrens bundle nade, no cover whatsoever? You're talking like the whole game, the only units that OST has are grens and they are going against everything else.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
25 Nov 2020, 11:35 AM
#70
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Not really. Grens lose medium/short range. As they should. The whole idea behind OST early is to use pios sight bonus combined with arc/range of MG42.
In sort you have to use all your units combined to win an engagement while you opponent can spam mainline infatry and cap all the map. That might work in 4vs4 in what you play but other mods is another story.
5 man grens are an option if you want to play grens early on the same as you would play rifles/ISs. Ostruppen are just spammable and quite decent behind cover (for their price/reinforce value of 16). 5 man grens are not that OP tbh. They are a bit cancerous to play against but they are doctrinal. Come late game, LMG grens become more than enough with vet to hold ground against assaulting rifles and ISs. And if you need to assault, the plethora of great tanks combined with PGrens can do the trick. Same as how USF relies on smoke + rifles to assault positions and the reply to that is the werfer or PGrens bundle nade.
Point here is that most player choose anything else but making vanilla grenadiers.
25 Nov 2020, 11:35 AM
#71
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
Never say never, but I think this is just very unlikely. Getting the 'CoH3' experience would require a seriius development team, but everyone has been pulled from the CoH franchise. We can see similar things with the AoE series: these have mostly been remasters without too much reworks of the engine, yet a complete dev team was needed.
CoH2 already had its free give aways, many people that wNted to play it already got their chance and either stuck with it or did not. Unless the game pass can do a small miracle, there will not be that huge new player spike and thus no revenue spike for Relic/MS.
That's at least my theory, but let's just see what the future will bring.
Probably something in-between our visions. For the best I hope.
25 Nov 2020, 11:45 AM
#72
Posts: 306
I will just add some ideas into how to buff grens/cons Ppsh without making them OP. I suggest following change
LMG42 grens
vet 1 (or 2 if its too op early game) now unlocks some sort of "hit the dirt"(only functions when upgrated with LMG42). It functions similar to the guards ability. Grens get a dps boost, but become completly stationary. Exact numbers must be tweeked might even add an rec acc nerf (that might go away with vet) so its only usefull when your in green cover. That way grens will have a way effectivly trading rifles at vet3 when they charge them frontally.
G43 grens
Cost of the upgrate to 60 ammo, gives a recc acc buff at vet1 (or 2). 5-10%.
Cons
Vet 3 is toned down a little (recc acc by 5% for example) This buff is added to the ppsh combat package. That way PPsh become more inline with the SVT and 7 Men upgrate + a slight nerf to cons 7 men which seem to outtrade just a little too well at vet3
What do you guys think?
LMG42 grens
vet 1 (or 2 if its too op early game) now unlocks some sort of "hit the dirt"(only functions when upgrated with LMG42). It functions similar to the guards ability. Grens get a dps boost, but become completly stationary. Exact numbers must be tweeked might even add an rec acc nerf (that might go away with vet) so its only usefull when your in green cover. That way grens will have a way effectivly trading rifles at vet3 when they charge them frontally.
G43 grens
Cost of the upgrate to 60 ammo, gives a recc acc buff at vet1 (or 2). 5-10%.
Cons
Vet 3 is toned down a little (recc acc by 5% for example) This buff is added to the ppsh combat package. That way PPsh become more inline with the SVT and 7 Men upgrate + a slight nerf to cons 7 men which seem to outtrade just a little too well at vet3
What do you guys think?
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25 Nov 2020, 11:51 AM
#73
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
In sort you have to use all your units combined to win an engagement while you opponent can spam mainline infatry.
Spamming riflemen in 1v1 is a surefire way to get rekt. Even if you go 5 infantry squads (3 rifles 1 officer 1 elite) it opens you up to a lot of manpower bleed from enemy infantry, vehicles and support weapons because you don’t have spare manpower to buy support weapons.
In no way does USF infantry need a nerf. Sections and Cons could be rebalanced with some aspects buffed and some nerfed, but not in a clear cut nerf.
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25 Nov 2020, 12:02 PM
#74
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Spamming riflemen in 1v1 is a surefire way to get rekt. Even if you go 5 infantry squads (3 rifles 1 officer 1 elite) it opens you up to a lot of manpower bleed from enemy infantry, vehicles and support weapons because you don’t have spare manpower to buy support weapons.
In no way does USF infantry need a nerf. Sections and Cons could be rebalanced with some aspects buffed and some nerfed, but not in a clear cut nerf.
Point here is power creep needs to stop and be reverted.
The problem is very complicated and nerfing osstruppen is simply not enough.
25 Nov 2020, 12:03 PM
#75
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Snip
Hit the dirt for Grenadiers seems a bit too much like a straight damage nerf. What I would do is give them a more specific hit the dirt, maybe called “Deploy in position”, which would lock grenadiers in position on the ground for 10 secs minimum (can only retreat in that time not get out of it until 10secs finish), and would complement their long range role by maybe increasing their weapon range by 5, 7 or 10 and in turn giving them a minimum range of 5-10 (can’t engage squads until out of that range).
Seems more fair, usable, better synergizing with their role and adds a nice defensive nature to them.
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25 Nov 2020, 12:15 PM
#76
Posts: 306
Hit the dirt for Grenadiers seems a bit too much like a straight damage nerf. What I would do is give them a more specific hit the dirt, maybe called “Deploy in position”, which would lock grenadiers in position on the ground for 10 secs minimum (can only retreat in that time not get out of it until 10secs finish), and would complement their long range role by maybe increasing their weapon range by 5, 7 or 10 and in turn giving them a minimum range of 5-10 (can’t engage squads until out of that range).
Seems more fair, usable, better synergizing with their role and adds a nice defensive nature to them.
Well i suggested the guards hit the dirt (i think fireing position its called) that one gives an offensive buff after like 2 sec. I totally agree that cons hit the dirt woudnt help grens at all
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25 Nov 2020, 12:15 PM
#77
Posts: 83
Vet 3 is toned down a little (recc acc by 5% for example) This buff is added to the ppsh combat package. That way PPsh become more inline with the SVT and 7 Men upgrate + a slight nerf to cons 7 men which seem to outtrade just a little too well at vet3
Nerfing Cons at max vet is a really poor idea. They are the only proper lategame frontline unit for SOV and already pay for that with tons of manpower due to their terrible performance and received accuraccy without vet and upgrade. SOV has no advanced mediums for late game like OST/OKW/UKF and T34/SU-85 combo is not as versatile and powerful as USF Sherman + Jackson. Cost-efficient mainline is the only edge that SOV has if the game drags for too long, fuel control becomes unimportant and it becomes more about VP/manpower.
The PPSH upgrade should be an early game option providing you with a way of inflicting casualties and actually contesting the early game. Instead of buffing its performance, it should be more readily available when it matters, meaning when you are being pressured by early game strats (Assgren, Osttruppen). 0CP, cost 30–40 muni. Assvolks pay 45 muni for way more extra firepower and added utility, just for comparison.
25 Nov 2020, 12:51 PM
#78
Posts: 570 | Subs: 1
With all due respect, it’s theoretical for you, not me. In more than 15 games with these changes (Removed RA bonus from 5men, Osttruppen timing nerfs, T1 skip nerfs) on miragefla’s mod with him and other lv17-19 players in 1s and 2s we extensively tested the Ostheer changes and found the faction to be in an excellent spot after them.
These conclusions are not absolutely perfect, but are certainly much better than theoretical predictions.
Okay fair enough on the nontheoretical bits, -but- The thing is we can test vanilla grenadiers against various factions and the result will always be the same unless grens get some sort of buff. The engagements will remain and continue to be horrid and painful. Which forces into the same 4 doctrines.
25 Nov 2020, 12:57 PM
#79
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Okay fair enough on the nontheoretical bits, -but- The thing is we can test vanilla grenadiers against various factions and the result will always be the same unless grens get some sort of buff. The engagements will remain and continue to be horrid and painful. Which forces into the same 4 doctrines.
Judging by Sander93’s thread, it seems highly likely that my old proposal to lower Ostheer medkit costs from 15 to 10 will make it to the preview. Other than that, I’m not sure what kind of buff LMG Grenadiers could be given. I did have an idea to give them a unique “hit the dirt” ability that immobilizes them (can cancel it after 10secs or retreat immediately) which would give them 5-10 extra LMG42 range. This both fits their role and plays to their strengths and defensive nature without being overbearing.
Not sure what else could be done. What kind of changes do you have in mind?
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25 Nov 2020, 13:10 PM
#80
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Judging by Sander93’s thread, it seems highly likely that my old proposal to lower Ostheer medkit costs from 15 to 10 will make it to the preview. Other than that, I’m not sure what kind of buff LMG Grenadiers could be given. I did have an idea to give them a unique “hit the dirt” ability that immobilizes them (can cancel it after 10secs or retreat immediately) which would give them 5-10 extra LMG42 range. This both fits their role and plays to their strengths and defensive nature without being overbearing.
Not sure what else could be done. What kind of changes do you have in mind?
The would give range beyond their sight so it will not always work and in addition DPS is not the problem Grenadier have.
And once more grenadier do not need buffs because that simply leads to power creep, the other infantries need nerfs especially since VG are not doing that great either.
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