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russian armor

MG42 over performing

9 Nov 2020, 11:04 AM
#41
avatar of le_saucisson_masque

Posts: 485 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2020, 05:00 AMSpoof

I don't know about you, but do keep in mind that these are two very high level players. I think their opinions on the subject are valuable.


Being high level plays only mean they are good at exploiting weakness of game balance, their opinion are worth even less because of the bias.
9 Nov 2020, 11:22 AM
#42
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

What I have noticed is that HMG do not set/fire/change window properly and this is a relatively new thing.

It might be more often in the HMG-42 or the HMG-42 might suffer more form it due to poor traverse speed but I think it has to all weapons.

And it is not seem to be simply an animation issue.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/106751/hmg-bug
9 Nov 2020, 11:44 AM
#43
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783



Being high level plays only mean they are good at exploiting weakness of game balance, their opinion are worth even less because of the bias.


So being high level has nothing to do with multitasking ability, or micromanagement skill, or fundamentally understanding game mechanics. All you need to do is find and use an overpowered unit or ability and thats enough to make you a top player?
Damn, I've been going about things all wrong from the start.
9 Nov 2020, 12:21 PM
#44
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

Mg42 is fine as long as the axis player is smarter than his opponent because it has long deploy time and take year to aim.

Thankfully most allies player don’t understand you can just walk out of its firing range and attack from the side.

In a 1v1 situation with player being as good as the other, mg42 would definitely need a buff.


Only when the allied squads walk at the edge of the arc and have big distance between them will they just walk out off the arc. The mg 42 has great aoe suprression and fast supression. It has slow traverse and standard setup time other wise it would actualy be op. It keeps it in check.

But axis players dont understand this. They cry maxim spam from the golden days of the maxim but fail to see this if the mg42 got quicker it would result in a much more op machine gun.

And to say the mg42 needs a buff in any situation without a compensating nerf is mindblowing. Really people stating the mg42 is up lol.
9 Nov 2020, 15:01 PM
#45
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2020, 03:34 AMKoRneY



Well, I guess I prefer airborne and just drop them in. It's not so 'straightforward' but it's not so hard either.

A doctrinal work around hardly qualifies. By that logic the Pershing is more available than the king tiger because I prefer heavy cav and I don't believe we will find anyone who agrees with that. It's impossible to NOT have access to the mg34 whereas it is possible to have to side tech for the 50 cal
9 Nov 2020, 19:41 PM
#46
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


In a 1v1 situation with player being as good as the other, mg42 would definitely need a buff.


the maxim and the MG34 disagree with this statement
9 Nov 2020, 21:04 PM
#47
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2020, 19:41 PMgbem

the maxim and the MG34 disagree with this statement

If both MG42 and MG34 were available at T0 I would take MG34 any day. The faster (?) build time and set up time along with generally less buggy performance is much better than the not-really necessary increased suppression and DPS. It's also a lot less devastating to lose an MG34 than it is to lose an MG42.

Of course, this is not to say either MG needs buffs or nerfs. They're both fine, learn to play against the MG42.
9 Nov 2020, 23:33 PM
#48
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2020, 21:04 PMSpoof

If both MG42 and MG34 were available at T0 I would take MG34 any day.


(x) to doubt

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2020, 21:04 PMSpoof

The faster (?) build time and set up time along with


setup time is 3 seconds for all these MGs including the maxim

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2020, 21:04 PMSpoof

generally less buggy performance


there is no gameplay affecting MG bug aside from the deathloop... the tracking snap is a graphic glitch shared by the 42 and 43

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2020, 21:04 PMSpoof

is much better than the not-really necessary increased suppression and DPS. It's also a lot less devastating to lose an MG34 than it is to lose an MG42.


is suppression affected by accuracy? because if it is then MG34 suppression is abysmal at far in contrast to MG42 suppression... 0.35 vs 0.28 is significant...

and it kinda shows... the MG42 suppresses alot faster than the MG34 at far... its possible to dip into then out of MG34 fire without being suppressed... the MG42 will suppress you on contact however...

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2020, 21:04 PMSpoof

Of course, this is not to say either MG needs buffs or nerfs. They're both fine, learn to play against the MG42.


yeah the maxim is the one most in need for a buff... though the MG34 could use some adjustment aswell
10 Nov 2020, 01:35 AM
#49
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2020, 23:33 PMgbem

snip

90% sure MG34 sets up faster than the 42. When I speak of buggy performance I'm referring to the 42's traverse time and how the MG sometimes sets up when you don't want it to (which I experience a lot more on the 42 than the 34). Also, no need to doubt my preferences. I WILL take a T0 MG34 over a T0 MG42.
10 Nov 2020, 02:35 AM
#50
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Nov 2020, 01:35 AMSpoof

90% sure MG34 sets up faster than the 42. When I speak of buggy performance I'm referring to the 42's traverse time and how the MG sometimes sets up when you don't want it to (which I experience a lot more on the 42 than the 34). Also, no need to doubt my preferences. I WILL take a T0 MG34 over a T0 MG42.



The setup time is identical. There are some statistical differences but nothing that would cause the issues you are having. The weapon will setup awkwardly if you issue an attack move command rather then a manual positioning command. If you select a building and order all units to evacuate instead of selecting individual units and ordering them to evacuate, the MG will often setup upon exiting the structure. This applies to all MGs.
10 Nov 2020, 02:39 AM
#51
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 682


A doctrinal work around hardly qualifies. By that logic the Pershing is more available than the king tiger because I prefer heavy cav and I don't believe we will find anyone who agrees with that. It's impossible to NOT have access to the mg34 whereas it is possible to have to side tech for the 50 cal


I get what you're saying. As a player who has mgs as a focal point of my play, it is not harder. (not trying to argue your point)
10 Nov 2020, 03:33 AM
#52
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Nov 2020, 01:35 AMSpoof

90% sure MG34 sets up faster than the 42.


they both take 3 seconds to setup

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Nov 2020, 01:35 AMSpoof

When I speak of buggy performance I'm referring to the 42's traverse time


they have the same traverse speed

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Nov 2020, 01:35 AMSpoof

and how the MG sometimes sets up when you don't want it to (which I experience a lot more on the 42 than the 34).


this is confirmation bias most likely... they have the same setup time packup time and formation...

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Nov 2020, 01:35 AMSpoof

Also, no need to doubt my preferences. I WILL take a T0 MG34 over a T0 MG42.


well its your preference... but do know that objectively the MG34 has only 2 advantages... thats the 10mp discount and a 2 second build time difference... everything else is irrefutable
10 Nov 2020, 06:59 AM
#53
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2020, 23:33 PMgbem
is suppression affected by accuracy? because if it is then MG34 suppression is abysmal at far in contrast to MG42 suppression... 0.35 vs 0.28 is significant...

It doesn't. Base suppression per second is calculated by ROF x suppression per bullet with the suppression threshold being 0.2. There are some factors that may influence this besides cover, but nobody really knows how that works. Presumably those are the same for all HMGs anyway.


jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2020, 23:33 PMgbem
and it kinda shows... the MG42 suppresses alot faster than the MG34 at far...

It doesn't. Suppression max far range against neutral cover is 1.16s for the HMG 42 and 1.28s for the HMG 34. Barely a noticeable difference.

10 Nov 2020, 07:52 AM
#54
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


It doesn't. Base suppression per second is calculated by ROF x suppression per bullet with the suppression threshold being 0.2. There are some factors that may influence this besides cover, but nobody really knows how that works. Presumably those are the same for all HMGs anyway.



do missed shots contribute to suppression?... ie if i mod a unit to have 0 accuracy and X suppression do they still suppress in Y time?


It doesn't. Suppression max far range against neutral cover is 1.16s for the HMG 42 and 1.28s for the HMG 34. Barely a noticeable difference.


not sure if thats the case though... one can dip an engie into and out of MG34 cone without being suppressed... cant say the same for the 42....

in any case the claims of setup time and the tracking bug is still incorrect... the mg42 and 34 are identical here...
10 Nov 2020, 09:14 AM
#55
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Nov 2020, 07:52 AMgbem
do missed shots contribute to suppression?... ie if i mod a unit to have 0 accuracy and X suppression do they still suppress in Y time?

Accuracy has no effect on suppression. Vet 3 Rangers (lowest target size in the game) get suppressed just as fast as vet 0 Conscripts.



jump backJump back to quoted post10 Nov 2020, 07:52 AMgbem
not sure if thats the case though... one can dip an engie into and out of MG34 cone without being suppressed... cant say the same for the 42....

Not sure what you're trying to "prove" here. Set up a test scenario with squads being at max range and you'll see that the HMG 34 suppresses them basically just as fast as the HMG 42. The only differences are +0.07s ready/fire aim time and +0.12s suppression time for the 34, which is virtually unnoticeable ingame.
10 Nov 2020, 12:42 PM
#56
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


Accuracy has no effect on suppression. Vet 3 Rangers (lowest target size in the game) get suppressed just as fast as vet 0 Conscripts.




Not sure what you're trying to "prove" here. Set up a test scenario with squads being at max range and you'll see that the HMG 34 suppresses them basically just as fast as the HMG 42. The only differences are +0.07s ready/fire aim time and +0.12s suppression time for the 34, which is virtually unnoticeable ingame.


That only happens on open ground. And i had modded for testing purposes a 100% acc MG34 and 1% acc MG42 and suddenly the MG34 was suppressing faster than the MG42.


PD: we already had this discussion before, and even in the vid you provided at that time (Vet 3 Rangers vs Ass Eng) there was a slight difference.

The reality is that unless you use heavy cover, the difference is practically unnoticeable.
10 Nov 2020, 14:14 PM
#57
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 479

You would really like CoH 1 then if you think the MG-42 is strong in this game :lolol:
10 Nov 2020, 23:14 PM
#59
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


Accuracy has no effect on suppression. Vet 3 Rangers (lowest target size in the game) get suppressed just as fast as vet 0 Conscripts.


i think it does... at least if the target is obscured by terrain or in yellow/heavy cover as ive observed in my tests... in which case the MG42 is superior for simply being more reliable against units in cratered out terrain or in sandbags... both valid targets...

lastly +0.12 suppression represents a 10% increase in suppression... plus theres the damage per shot of 3 vs 4 for the mg42... that is well worth a 4% price increase...


jump backJump back to quoted post10 Nov 2020, 14:14 PMClarity
You would really like CoH 1 then if you think the MG-42 is strong in this game :lolol:


you would really like the maxim if you think the MG42 is bad in this game :lolol:
11 Nov 2020, 13:09 PM
#60
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Nov 2020, 23:14 PMgbem


lastly +0.12 suppression represents a 10% increase in suppression... plus theres the damage per shot of 3 vs 4 for the mg42... that is well worth a 4% price increase...



Its actually the MG34 with the higher suppression per bullet. However, the MG42 compensates with a higher rate of fire.
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