Combination of doctrinal abilities that should be removed
7 Nov 2020, 15:12 PM
#21
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
I agree with tackling the strongest ones, i.e. the ones that dominate the meta (negatively). The Elefant + Stuka/spotting scopes and ISU + IL-2 bombing run commanders. I've never seen anyone complain about Breakthrough or Lightning War or the others nor do I think they are a problem. Yes their strength is above average, but that is mostly because a lot of commanders are meh and they are not dominatingly good. Don't try to fix what isn't broken, we'd just end up with even more mediocre commanders.
7 Nov 2020, 15:37 PM
#22
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Honestly the only true broken combo is ISU+IL-2 bombing, but it is broken because of T34\76 RAM.
Regarding stuka, honestly dont know why ppl are complaing about it, since its not THAT good, considering you can hear where its gonna drop and you have plenty of time doudge it. And against howitzers pretty much all expensice arty is gonna rek them.
Loiters are frustating to play against, but they are countered by AA units, so player has a potentual to waste ~200muni for nothing.
Other then that, everything else can be counetered by unit relocation anyway.
Regarding stuka, honestly dont know why ppl are complaing about it, since its not THAT good, considering you can hear where its gonna drop and you have plenty of time doudge it. And against howitzers pretty much all expensice arty is gonna rek them.
Loiters are frustating to play against, but they are countered by AA units, so player has a potentual to waste ~200muni for nothing.
Other then that, everything else can be counetered by unit relocation anyway.
7 Nov 2020, 15:41 PM
#23
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Regarding stuka, honestly dont know why ppl are complaing about it, since its not THAT good, considering you can hear where its gonna drop and you have plenty of time doudge it. And against howitzers pretty much all expensice arty is gonna rek them.
Stuka commanders also have recon run.
Couple that with ele and the fact that ML-20 can severely damage or at least zone ele and you'll understand why its cancer combo.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
7 Nov 2020, 15:55 PM
#24
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Stuka commanders also have recon run.
Couple that with ele and the fact that ML-20 can severely damage or at least zone ele and you'll understand why its cancer combo.
If we speak about offmap pefromance about howitzers then both Sov and Ost have cancer recon+offmap combo anyway. I was speaking about stuka as an arty ability in general. If anything recon should be removed from this commanders, not off map itself.
7 Nov 2020, 16:28 PM
#25
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
...Lightning War...
Imo there 2 separate issues here.
1) loiter planes are mess since the can be devastating if there not AA or a waster of munition if a single Quad is not the field. I assume that eventually this will be fixed.
2) Imo currently Tiger is strong vs mediums (other Super heavies also. Building enough mediums (or M10) imo should be a valid counter to Tigers. The AT loiter though can easily protect a Tiger and that imo is not good for diversity in the game since it makes TDs a far safer choice.
7 Nov 2020, 17:09 PM
#26
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Regarding stuka, honestly dont know why ppl are complaing about it, since its not THAT good, considering you can hear where its gonna drop and you have plenty of time doudge it. And against howitzers pretty much all expensice arty is gonna rek them.
This is exactly the issue though. Having howitzer deletion on the same commander as an elefant is way too much. You can dominate tanks and delete artillery?
You could delete Ram from the game and IL2 +ISU would still be a problem for the same reason. You should not be getting one of the best vehicles in the game, AND have the ability to just click away a howitzer
7 Nov 2020, 17:41 PM
#27
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Similar opinion as Sanders. Just replace IL2 bombing strike and Stuka dive bomb out of the ISU/Ele doctrines.
I think it's a design problem which is harder to fix as you are basically adjusting several commanders which have completely different performances across the board. As opposed to say ISU/Ele commanders specifically in teamgames.
It would be much better and easier to adjust and balance if EFA didn't had as many commanders as there are, but we know that Relic can't or won't remove commanders.
...
I think it's a design problem which is harder to fix as you are basically adjusting several commanders which have completely different performances across the board. As opposed to say ISU/Ele commanders specifically in teamgames.
It would be much better and easier to adjust and balance if EFA didn't had as many commanders as there are, but we know that Relic can't or won't remove commanders.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
7 Nov 2020, 19:01 PM
#28
Posts: 626 | Subs: 1
There are a number of doctrinal abilities that combine are simply too powerful and imo they should be removed. Here are some examples feel free to add other abilities combinations:
Super heavies TD and powerful off maps:
Ele/stuka
ISU-152/IL-2 bombing
JT/assault artillery
ISu-152/mark target
I agree with those above. Super long range heavies shouldn't also has elite call-in infantry, bombing run or barrage to kill emplacement dedicated to fight those heavies. Higher the gamemode the bigger the problem it creates.
But i wouldn't go so far with the changes you listed later. I mean pershing and rangers aren't the problem that cannot be counter or fight with. Plus what's the problem of concripts repairing ISU? Their repair speed is slow and while reparing they don't fight which cause weaker field presents. Problem starts when more than 2 abilites are very potent and potensially abusive.
i mean in your perfect vision of coh2 every commander with heavy tank should have nothing else. I would more focus on commanders that can counter and fight most on the stuff in game and are mainly without a weak spot.
7 Nov 2020, 19:27 PM
#29
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
This is exactly the issue though. Having howitzer deletion on the same commander as an elefant is way too much. You can dominate tanks and delete artillery?
You could delete Ram from the game and IL2 +ISU would still be a problem for the same reason. You should not be getting one of the best vehicles in the game, AND have the ability to just click away a howitzer
It is issue, but it should be clerified what is more destructive here off maps or recon, and what is better removing recon or removing off maps.
I personally think that recon should be removed rather then off maps.
7 Nov 2020, 19:48 PM
#30
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I agree with those above. Super long range heavies shouldn't also has elite call-in infantry, bombing run or barrage to kill emplacement dedicated to fight those heavies. Higher the gamemode the bigger the problem it creates.
Nice to see we agree on some points.
But i wouldn't go so far with the changes you listed later. I mean pershing and rangers aren't the problem that cannot be counter or fight with. Plus what's the problem of concripts repairing ISU? Their repair speed is slow and while reparing they don't fight which cause weaker field presents. Problem starts when more than 2 abilites are very potent and potensially abusive.
Imo problem with AT ranges is that they are some of the best AT units on the game. So they allow to buy AI vehicles and then drop Caloipe or Pershing. If the Pershing gets any sort of buffs it could turn ugly.
Imagine thou that one risks his PvIV in a dive to kill a Calliope only to face Ranger with 3 Super bazookas.
Imo the problem is not that conscripts can repair the ISU, I specifically mentioned the combination of units with damage reduction like the KV-1. 7 men conscripts can repair KV-1 very fast. The KV-1 is all ready a very durable tank for its time frame and being repaired fast only amplifies the issue. Imo there are solution to this like replacing the Damage reduction with HP or breaking the combo by removing one of the two abilities.
i mean in your perfect vision of coh2 every commander with heavy tank should have nothing else. I would more focus on commanders that can counter and fight most on the stuff in game and are mainly without a weak spot.
Imo the power level of all commander should be about the same
7 Nov 2020, 19:53 PM
#31
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
It is issue, but it should be clerified what is more destructive here off maps or recon, and what is better removing recon or removing off maps.
I personally think that recon should be removed rather then off maps.
I don't see how that can be the case, isu+il2 doesn't have any recon so that doesn't even apply
Jaeger armor has spotting scopes and recon. If you were to say remove one those because of redundancy, I would agree, but the issue here is definitely the stuka bomb. You only need to spot the howy for a second, so recon isn't the major issue
7 Nov 2020, 21:02 PM
#32
Posts: 320
Imo there 2 separate issues here.
1) loiter planes are mess since the can be devastating if there not AA or a waster of munition if a single Quad is not the field. I assume that eventually this will be fixed.
2) Imo currently Tiger is strong vs mediums (other Super heavies also. Building enough mediums (or M10) imo should be a valid counter to Tigers. The AT loiter though can easily protect a Tiger and that imo is not good for diversity in the game since it makes TDs a far safer choice.
This sums it up pretty well. Very good topic to discuss.
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