Conscript PPSH assault package
4 Nov 2020, 12:05 PM
#121
Posts: 366
Arr man, now we are talking about tec instead of the ppsh package.
In my opinion it goes like this.
Hard tec: Tec that add to your progress to higher tiers.
Soft tec: To gain access to build new units, structures and upgrades.
Side tec: Added cost to unlocking abilities and improving performance.
Conscripts at grenade and molotov fall into side tec category and volks snare is tied to hard tec.
Thats the concept I have from playing AOE, you dont need to build a blacksmith and go straight to the last age but your opponient may still have more potent infantry as they have built the blacksmith and upgrade their units.
5 Nov 2020, 05:14 AM
#122
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
all im saying is that theres no reason for cons PPSH to perform as it does at the moment... its completely outclassed by volks MP-40
In what scenario exactly? When they're fighting eachother? That doesnt really represent the way you'll be using them most often, as others have said
Conscript ppshs are a solid upgrade still. 7 man cons, and svt cons to a lesser extent, have made it less common but they're still good. I use them often in 2v2 when going guard rifle combined arms
Not sure if anyone has even mentioned oorah yet, which is a big plus for ppsh cons
5 Nov 2020, 09:00 AM
#123
Posts: 1979
In what scenario exactly? When they're fighting eachother? That doesnt really represent the way you'll be using them most often, as others have said
the point is why must volk mp40 outclass ppsh conscripts... what possible reason is there for a 60 munition upgrade on the worst infantry ingame to be worse than a 45 munition upgrade for a better (though still bad) infantry squad...
Conscript ppshs are a solid upgrade still. 7 man cons, and svt cons to a lesser extent, have made it less common but they're still good. I use them often in 2v2 when going guard rifle combined arms
again no reason for the axis upgrade to be better...
Not sure if anyone has even mentioned oorah yet, which is a big plus for ppsh cons
id say the (free) smoke nades are an even bigger plus on MP40 volks... smoke nades actually allow you to rush machineguns... oorah`s only real advantage over smoke nades is snaring
5 Nov 2020, 10:42 AM
#124
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
the point is why must volk mp40 outclass ppsh conscripts... what possible reason is there for a 60 munition upgrade on the worst infantry ingame to be worse than a 45 munition upgrade for a better (though still bad) infantry squad...
For one thing, because balance isn't a matter of "them versus us". Units are balanced on their own, within their respective factions and against the environment in which they operate. This means that there can easily be differences in cost effectiveness between comparable units of different factions/sides.
5 Nov 2020, 12:18 PM
#125
Posts: 1515
For one thing, because balance isn't a matter of "them versus us". Units are balanced on their own, within their respective factions and against the environment in which they operate. This means that there can easily be differences in cost effectiveness between comparable units of different factions/sides.
Amen to that. Besides, don't cons get 6 PPSHs? Combine that with sprint, they can easily close the gap vs volks/grens/jaeger/sniper and win. Don't get all the fuss about it. The upgrade is fine.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
5 Nov 2020, 12:20 PM
#126
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Amen to that. Besides, don't cons get 6 PPSHs? Combine that with sprint, they can easily close the gap vs volks/grens/jaeger/sniper and win. Don't get all the fuss about it. The upgrade is fine.
No they do not, they get 3.
5 Nov 2020, 12:22 PM
#127
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Amen to that. Besides, don't cons get 6 PPSHs? Combine that with sprint, they can easily close the gap vs volks/grens/jaeger/sniper and win. Don't get all the fuss about it. The upgrade is fine.
They get 3 which are about 25% weaker then shock/penal ones.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
5 Nov 2020, 14:56 PM
#128
Posts: 5279
Do the ppshs transfer? Or when the model with the ppsh dies is that ppsh out of the equation
#stalinwept
5 Nov 2020, 15:58 PM
#129
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Do the ppshs transfer? Or when the model with the ppsh dies is that ppsh out of the equation
They transfer and reduced the close DPS drop when model die.
5 Nov 2020, 16:00 PM
#130
Posts: 1515
No they do not, they get 3.
Thank you for the correction. Still, I don't think it's overpriced (maybe a bit). Even though they are weaker than the shock ones.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
5 Nov 2020, 16:03 PM
#131
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
the point is why must volk mp40 outclass ppsh conscripts... what possible reason is there for a 60 munition upgrade on the worst infantry ingame to be worse than a 45 munition upgrade for a better (though still bad) infantry squad...
Because this isn't how balance works, and you're analysis is flawed to begin with. You missed the point, I don't agree that mp40 upgrade completely outclasses it. Who wins in a 1v1 fight is a terrible way to test the units
5 Nov 2020, 16:05 PM
#132
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Thank you for the correction.
It response to your question not a correction
. Still, I don't think it's overpriced (maybe a bit). Even though they are weaker than the shock ones.
that is pretty standard most mainline weapons are weaker versions of elite weapons same why the Storm trooper Mp-40 are superior to rest of the MP-40s.
5 Nov 2020, 18:00 PM
#133
Posts: 1979
Because this isn't how balance works, and you're analysis is flawed to begin with. You missed the point, I don't agree that mp40 upgrade completely outclasses it.
then what supposed "advantage" exists for the cons ppsh upgrade then?
Who wins in a 1v1 fight is a terrible way to test the units
of course... but lets not count the smoke grenade HE grenade and the lower cost yes? also theres apparently a DR reduction... lets not count that too
5 Nov 2020, 18:09 PM
#134
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
then what supposed "advantage" exists for the cons ppsh upgrade then?
Once again, you are still asking an irrelevant question. I suggest you actually make an attempt to read what Sander said to you. You are doing balance completely wrong right now
of course... but lets not count the smoke grenade HE grenade and the lower cost yes? also theres apparently a DR reduction... lets not count that too
What are you talking about? No one is "not counting" anything. And it's a target size reduction, not damage reduction
5 Nov 2020, 18:13 PM
#135
Posts: 1979
Once again, you are still asking an irrelevant question. I suggest you actually make an attempt to read what Sander said to you. You are doing balance completely wrong right now
by that argument we should buff cons PPSH even more since SOV is underperforming hard (at least outside of teamgames)
What are you talking about? No one is "not counting" anything. And it's a target size reduction, not damage reduction
ahh yes TR reduction... but thats moot point... volks mp40 is a superior upgrade regardless
5 Nov 2020, 18:18 PM
#136
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
by that argument we should buff cons PPSH even more since SOV is underperforming hard (at least outside of teamgames)
What? This has nothing to do with what I just said
Volks mp40 is a superior upgrade regardless
Once again this means nothing for ppshs. Ppshs do as well as they should against what they are fighting against. Your opinion about mp40s has nothing to do with that
5 Nov 2020, 18:20 PM
#137
Posts: 1979
What? This has nothing to do with what I just said
"I suggest you actually make an attempt to read what Sander said to you."
For one thing, because balance isn't a matter of "them versus us". Units are balanced on their own, within their respective factions and against the environment in which they operate. This means that there can easily be differences in cost effectiveness between comparable units of different factions/sides.
by that argument cons PPSH should be buffed as SOV is underperforming HARD
Once again this means nothing for ppshs. Ppshs do as well as they should against what they fight against. Your opinion about mp40s has nothing to do with that
they dont... they get wrecked by STGs and MP40s against OKW get wrecked by assgrens as OST and are nowhere near as good as 5 man or ostruppen...
5 Nov 2020, 18:28 PM
#138
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
by that argument cons PPSH should be buffed as SOV is underperforming HARD
Lol you mean your opinion that they underperform. Care to actually qualify that with any facts or specifics? Which game mode? Against what faction/commander?
Anyone who says "this faction is UP/OP" without any nuance should not be taken seriously. 9/10 it's a specific strategy with a faction that overperforms
they dont... they get wrecked by STGs and MP40s against OKW get wrecked by assgrens as OST and are nowhere near as good as 5 man or ostruppen...
They do not get "wrecked" by stgs unless you use them poorly. Imo ostruppen and 5 man grens are OP, so that's not a good measuring stick
5 Nov 2020, 18:37 PM
#139
Posts: 1979
Lol you mean your opinion that they underperform. Care to actually qualify that with any facts or specifics? Which game mode? Against what faction/commander?
Anyone who says "this faction is UP/OP" without any nuance should not be taken seriously. 9/10 it's a specific strategy with a faction that overperforms
my take is that they underperform out of team games thanks to that 20 minute period of helplessness the faction faces between enemy weapon upgrades and the T-70...
https://www.coh2.org/topic/105597/1v1-automatch-stats/page/1#post_id822826
granted these winrates arent sufficient to say with absolute certainty that SOV underperforms... but these statistics at least bear weight beyond that of the average "opinion"
They do not get "wrecked" by stgs unless you use them poorly. Imo ostruppen and 5 man grens are OP, so that's not a good measuring stick
STGs are a general purpose upgrade which increases DPS at ALL RANGES... sure it loses to cons PPSH upclose but the advantage of increased firepower at all ranges offsets that...
5 Nov 2020, 19:20 PM
#140
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
but these statistics at least bear weight beyond that of the average "opinion"
I wouldn't say that, given that they are from April-May. Even then this is silly, you say they underperform in team games but then post stats from 1v1
20 minute period between t70 and upgrades? Can you at least try not to exaggerate every other sentence of you're attempting to make a serious point
STGs are a general purpose upgrade which increases DPS at ALL RANGES... sure it loses to cons PPSH upclose but the advantage of increased firepower at all ranges offsets that...
This has nothing to do with that I said. I said Ppsh cons do not get wrecked by stgs if you use them correctly. Oorah, flank, just don't walk straight at them in the open. They aren't shock troops
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