Conscript PPSH assault package

I wouldn't say that, given that they are from April-May. Even then this is silly, you say they underperform in team games but then post stats from 1v1

the only thing the soviets got between april-may and now is a nerf... also i mentioned that they underperform outside of teamgames... because in teamgames they can rely on the other player for support during their "weak period"

This has nothing to do with that I said. I said Ppsh cons do not get wrecked by stgs if you use them correctly. Oorah, flank, just don't walk straight at them in the open. They aren't shock troops

soo youre saying that SOV has to outplay OKW every single time with a doctrinal upgrade/unit designed to improve close range firepower?

soo youre saying that SOV has to outplay OKW every single time with a doctrinal upgrade/unit designed to improve close range firepower?

If they are advancing on a midrange squad that's standing in cover? Yeah. That's how the game works. Welcome to company of heroes

Try walking up to bar riflemen with assgrens without using sprint. Like I said, shocks are the only cqc squad that can just walk straight up to people. Commandos can sort of do it with stealth, but not really

You have nothing to gain by continuing to talk about winrates. It contributes nothing to the topic of ppshs, and just makes you look more biased. Your taking a small difference and putting a huge weight on it. It's not a valid argument

Try walking up to bar riflemen with assgrens without using sprint. Like I said, shocks are the only cqc squad that can just walk straight up to people. Commandos can sort of do it with stealth, but not really

bar rifles cost more than significantly more assgrens or volk mp40... cons PPSH actually cost more than volk mp40 and doctrinal in contrast to volk stg but will lose on a straight up fight... thats the point im trying to convey...

You have nothing to gain by continuing to talk about winrates. It contributes nothing to the topic of ppshs, and just makes you look more biased. Your taking a small difference and putting a huge weight on it. It's not a valid argument

the only one whose biased here is the person whose saying SOV should get an inferior upgrade... you gave given 0 justifications beyond the "units are balanced by faction" nonsense that can be used to "justify" bad balance... if you want to argue then use some other argument other than this terrible argument...

bar rifles cost more than significantly more assgrens or volk mp40... cons PPSH actually cost more than volk mp40 and doctrinal in contrast to volk stg but will lose on a straight up fight... thats the point im trying to convey...

Once again, you're still doing this wrong. I don't know how many times this point needs to be repeated for you:
"For one thing, because balance isn't a matter of "them versus us". Units are balanced on their own, within their respective factions and against the environment in which they operate" -Sander

Youre comparing costs and ignoring 100% of the context of the army they are a part of.

Cons having more men, fighting smaller squads, Soviets being the least muni drained faction.... you don't care about any of this. Your entire argument is "this upgrade is worse than that one". Cool, no one cares

Once again, you're still doing this wrong. I don't know how many times this point needs to be repeated for you:
"For one thing, because balance isn't a matter of "them versus us". Units are balanced on their own, within their respective factions and against the environment in which they operate" -Sander

Youre comparing costs and ignoring 100% of the context of the army they are a part of.

"were gonna give SOV a plethora of bad units (maxim) and upgrades (cons ppsh) but its fine because fAcTiOn deSiGn and were totally gonna ignore winrates or how the faction performs overall because eNemY aT tHe gAtEs says all soviet equipment suck"

Cons having more men, fighting smaller squads, Soviets being the least muni drained faction.... you don't care about any of this. Your entire argument is "this upgrade is worse than that one". Cool, no one cares

cons have huge target size fighting squads with lower target size with a lower DPS per gun upgrade with less guns per upgrade while draining more munitions because of the pricier upgrade...

if you do not care about this then simply stop arguing... we dont need to listen to this sort of bias...

Thank you for the correction. Still, I don't think it's overpriced (maybe a bit). Even though they are weaker than the shock ones.

each PPSH is weaker than a shock ppsh and is weaker than even a volk MP40...you also get less guns and it also doesnt come with smoke and an HE grenade... it also costs more...

"were gonna give SOV a plethora of bad units (maxim) and upgrades (cons ppsh) but its fine because fAcTiOn deSiGn and were totally gonna ignore winrates or how the faction performs overall because eNemY aT tHe gAtEs says all soviet equipment suck"

And now you're trying to be a troll in your own thread. Let me know how that goes for you

cons have huge target size fighting squads with lower target size with a lower DPS per gun upgrade with less guns per upgrade while draining more munitions because of the pricier upgrade...

if you do not care about this then simply stop arguing... we dont need to listen to this sort of bias...

Who's we? I'm talking to you, and I see almost no one agreeing with your logic. The only reasonable idea in the thread was the vet gain buff

And now you're trying to be a troll in your own thread. Let me know how that goes for you

youre giving bad logic... im simply making the terrible logic more apparent... as ive said before... "faction design" or "flavor" or whatever u want to call it can be used to justify bad balance... if you wanna argue then use some other argument aside from this...

Who's we? I'm talking to you, and I see almost no one agreeing with your logic. The only reasonable idea in the thread was the vet gain buff

you can see people agreeing that the upgrade should give 6 PPSHs... i suggest rereading the thread

youre giving bad logic... im simply making the terrible logic more apparent... as ive said before... "faction design" or "flavor" or whatever u want to call it can be used to justify bad balance... if you wanna argue then use some other argument aside from this...

Lol okay dude. You are beyond help

you can see people agreeing that the upgrade should give 6 PPSHs... i suggest rereading the thread

Lol I see way more people pointing out the flaws in your argument

Lol okay dude. You are beyond help

is that all you can say? an ad hominem does not contribute to your argument in any way... as ive said before give an argument other than "flavor" or "faction design".... you havent given any

Lol I see way more people pointing out the flaws in your argument

read the comments... there is almost unanimous consensus that conscript PPSH needs a buff... people are just split between those who want a vet buff and those who want 6x PPSHs those who want PPSHs nondoc those who want to add an HE grenade and all sorts of changes....

ive said before give an argument other than "flavor" or "faction design"....

I havent used either of those words a single time in this thread. I have given you a full explanation of why the soviet upgrade is fine, and you refused to accept it with no good reason

read the comments... there is almost unanimous consensus that conscript PPSH needs a buff... people are just split between those who want a vet buff and those who want 6x PPSHs those who want PPSHs nondoc those who want to add an HE grenade and all sorts of changes....

I'm saying no one agrees with your logic. Nobody agrees with using mp40s to justify buffing ppshs. That's just stupid

A vet gain buff would hardly be anything close to what you are talking about. Id have no problem with a vet gain buff, that's actually a reasonable suggestion. Yours are not reasonable at all

I havent used either of those words a single time in this thread. I have given you a full explanation of why the soviet upgrade is fine, and you refused to accept it with no good reason

because youre using the argument sanders made....

For one thing, because balance isn't a matter of "them versus us". Units are balanced on their own, within their respective factions and against the environment in which they operate. This means that there can easily be differences in cost effectiveness between comparable units of different factions/sides.

youre saying cons PPSH being inferior to volk mp40 is justified because the unit is balanced within their respective faction and the units that they fight against... this is basically a variant of the "flavor" or "faction design" argument in its expanded form...

im saying this is a terrible argument because this can be used to justify almost every bad design or underperforming unit in the game by simply saying "the unit is designed to underperform because flavor"... at which point a faction is filled with nothing but underperforming units in its roster because "flavor" with only a few good units preventing total disaster... sound familiar? thats basically SOV "design" in a nutshell....

also name 1 advantage cons ppsh has as an upgrade over volk mp40... i dont think you can cite any...

I'm saying no one agrees with your logic. Nobody agrees with using mp40s to justify buffing ppshs. That's just stupid

i see only two people outright refuting the comparison... thats you and sanders...

there are other people such as jibber point out veterancy but you and sanders are the only ones who say that the comparison should not be done...

A vet gain buff would hardly be anything close to what you are talking about. Id have no problem with a vet gain buff, that's actually a reasonable suggestion. Yours are not reasonable at all

and why would that be the case?

youre saying cons PPSH being inferior to volk mp40 is justified because the unit is balanced within their respective faction and the units that they fight against... this is basically a variant of the "flavor" or "faction design" argument in its expanded form...

Yes and I have given you multiple specific examples of that design, which you have continually ignored. Cons are more survivable, cheaper to reinforce, they have oorah. All 3 of those things directly apply to helping with use of the ppsh upgrade

im saying this is a terrible argument because this can be used to justify almost every bad design or underperforming unit in the game by simply saying "the unit is designed to underperform because flavor"...

But nobody is saying that, or anything close to it. I am pointing out to you specific ways in which the design of conscripts benefits the ppsh upgrade. Nobody is saying "cons are designed to suck, and that's okay".... No one has said anything close to that

Yes and I have given you multiple specific examples of that design, which you have continually ignored. Cons are more survivable, cheaper to reinforce, they have oorah. All 3 of those things directly apply to helping with use of the ppsh upgrade

those advantages apply to the base conscript vs volksgrenadier matchup yet volks are still considered superior to base conscripts...

if base volk > base cons and MP40 upgrade >>> ppsh upgrade then volk + mp40 > cons + ppsh

unless you assume some sort of synergy... in which case id like you to identify the supposed "synergy" between cons ppsh that volk mp40 does not present with aswell....

survivability and reinforcement cost dont really help in the base volk vs conscript matchup... the biggest argument you can make here is oorah but volk mp40 have smoke... smoke is just as useful if not more useful that oorah due to its utility..


soo to simplify..

combat advantage? volk mp40
cost efficiency? volk mp40
utility? volk mp40

the one advantage cons ppsh has is more mobility... but the utility advantage offsets it by alot...

survivability and reinforcement cost dont really help in the base volk vs conscript matchup...

Once again, you are still doing balance wrong. They fight a lot more than just each other, and I wasn't talking about "base volks", I have no idea what you're trying to say here

The fact that you think reinforce cost and survivability don't matter to a cqc squad is just absurd

Once again, you are still doing balance wrong. They fight a lot more than just each other, and I wasn't talking about "base volks", I have no idea what you're trying to say here

the point is those advantages youve mentioned exist in the base conscript vs volksgrenadier matchup and it DOEST HELP... conscripts are still considered worse than volksgrenadiers despite having all those advantages

if base volk > base cons and MP40 upgrade >>> ppsh upgrade then volk + mp40 > cons + ppsh

The fact that you think reinforce cost and survivability don't matter to a cqc squad is just absurd

reinforce costs and survivability are balanced by DPS... squads are balanced as a whole not as a model... which is why grenadiers and conscripts are balanced against each other despite cons having 2 more models and why reinforce cost per squad is more important than reinforce per model... one has greater DPS and the other has greater survivability...

for volksgrenadier vs conscripts volks outright outclass conscripts and beat them very easily at ranges outside of range 10 while sporting FREE PANZERFAUSTS AND INCENDIARY NADES... due to that it is widely considered that VG are SUPERIOR to base conscripts...

now if BASE VG are superior to BASE cons what makes you think that volks mp40 isnt superior to cons PPSH....

what possible synergy is there with conscripts and PPSH that DOES NOT exist in volks and MP40

the point is those advantages youve mentioned exist in the base conscript vs volksgrenadier matchup and it DOEST HELP...

Yeah they help more for ppsh cons than they do regular ones... Do you seriously need me to explain why a cqc squad benefits more from survivability and sprint more than a general one?

Do you really not see how reinforce cost benefits a squad that is constantly running to point blank range?

I'm just gonna say we disagree and move on, this is getting old

Sprint on a CQC squad is perhaps one of the strongest abilities they can have. It means that a squad they attempt to close in on, unless they throw a grenade (Which can be dodged) cannot possibly escape from them, unless they too have a sprint.

If your CQC squad has the ability to win against the opposing squad at close range, and you manage to avoid losing everything during closing in, you have forced a retreat at best, and a wipe at worst against whichever squad you don't like the look of. CQC squads without sprints can be kited around by infantry.

This assumes a lack of outside interference, obviously. It's messy otherwise.

for volksgrenadier vs conscripts volks outright outclass conscripts and beat them very easily at ranges outside of range 10 while sporting

Firstly, volks cost you more, start from that. Secondly stock cons can and will beat stock volks at close range, and thats how cons are supposed to be used in a first place. Its harded to charge and beat volks, then grens, its true. But they are rufly that ~20 additional MP harder to beat then grens. Cons have sprint for that excact reason to be used upclose.

FREE PANZERFAUSTS AND INCENDIARY NADES

Yeah, because both Ost and OKW has access to UC\M3\Jeep equvalent from the get go, its so unfair that soviets have to unlock AT nades facing supperior vehicles from 1 minute mark. Ppl keep bringing this stuff up, completly ignoring the fact that axis dont have any early vehicles aside from kubel what so ever. But at any point for OKW nades and faust should be swaped anyway. Nade after set up, faust after call in.

what possible synergy is there with conscripts and PPSH that DOES NOT exist in volks and MP40

Synergy is simple. PPSH cons are direct upgrade to cons usage. Upgrade to make squad made to be used upclose, have upclose DPS boost. Volks MP40 makes them into different squad completly. Not to mention that with each volk MP40 model dead, ppsh cons wont lose DPS from PPSH until 4 models are dead.

Also you are still trying to compare PPSH cons to MP40 for unknown reason. Thouse are 2 completly different upgrades, the only common thing is that they are both locked behind commander. PPSH is a base utility upgrade, MP40 is a role changer. If anything MP40 volks should be compared with SVT cons.

SVT cons are great and 7-men are great, PPSH package is just weaker in comparacent, but its still a solid and good upgrade overall, and vet 3 cons with it are very good aswell. Maybe just need a cost reduction to cost 45 or so muni, aside from that its competly alright, but it was never ment to turn cons into second shock troop squad.

Yeah, because both Ost and OKW has access to UC\M3\Jeep equvalent from the get go

To be fair Ost does have the 250 buildable on german infantry doctrine at cp0, but UC and m3 are both stock so i think your point still stands. Agree on pretty much everything else too