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Conscript PPSH assault package

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4 Nov 2020, 00:33 AM
#101
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Nov 2020, 22:31 PMVipper

You entitled to you opinion even when it wrong.

And here is replay of isildur beating Osttrupen Ostheer using the soviets at a top level game something that wouldn't happen if thing where any where close to what you describe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0gekQFP3r0&list=PL5Gq-kPFBcWFXhtEAxQWkSUUj-XK_f83n&index=6


You entitled to you opinion even when it is wrong aswell...

1. you didnt even try to refute any of the points i laid out as to why sov is the weakest fac... i already laid it out as to the objectively subpar SOV units (maxim cons etc) and

2. i have laid out additonal objective data such as SOV has having the worst winrate

3. youve committed an anecdotal fallacy... just because some replay has someone beating ostruppen as SOV doesnt mean SOV is stronger than ost...

4 Nov 2020, 00:49 AM
#102
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

Okay, comparing mp40 volks with conscripts ppsh I do think the volks upgrade is better also in performance (for those not knowing the volks mp40 grants a small 7% received accuracy modifier as well as grenades and smoke). Volks would beat ppsh cons at their ideal range to around 15-20 meters.

I would still consider giving ppsh cons a grenade to make it a assault package not a ppsh upgrade (no smoke because of sprint) and possibly fully kitting the squad out with ppshs (remove the weapon slot).

I dont think they need any hard benefits to their stats when they upgrade like the volks get, only on I consider is increase vet.

This would make them work well with 7 man cons.
4 Nov 2020, 00:59 AM
#103
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Okay, comparing mp40 volks with conscripts ppsh I do think the volks upgrade is better also in performance (for those not knowing the volks mp40 grants a small 7% received accuracy modifier as well as grenades and smoke). Volks would beat ppsh cons at their ideal range to around 15-20 meters.

I would still consider giving ppsh cons a grenade to make it a assault package not a ppsh upgrade (no smoke because of sprint) and possibly fully kitting the squad out with ppshs (remove the weapon slot).

I dont think they need any hard benefits to their stats when they upgrade like the volks get, only on I consider is increase vet.

This would make them work well with 7 man cons.


why though? why dont we just outright buff the upgrade to be on par with volks MP40? i dont get why people really want SOV to have subpar upgrades and units... the exact same signs can be seen in the maxim thread...
4 Nov 2020, 01:06 AM
#104
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2020, 00:59 AMgbem


why though? why dont we just outright buff the upgrade to be on par with volks MP40? i dont get why people really want SOV to have subpar upgrades and units... the exact same signs can be seen in the maxim thread...


Smoke is an absolute no go unless it disables sprint. I think the mp40 upgrade is locked behind first tec built. Ppsh is behind 2 cps and conscript shine with vet. It make sense to increase their veterancy gain when they upgrade by how much, would need to be tested.

I do think its inferior upgrade in general atm especially on a new conscript squad.
4 Nov 2020, 01:19 AM
#105
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



Smoke is an absolute no go unless it disables sprint. I think the mp40 upgrade is locked behind first tec built. Ppsh is behind 2 cps and conscript shine with vet. It make sense to increase their veterancy gain when they upgrade by how much, would need to be tested.


i mean we could just bring cons ppsh to 6x ppsh... its alot easier and better for balance
4 Nov 2020, 01:20 AM
#106
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2020, 00:03 AMVipper

After being burned to death again again from clow cars I am pretty sure most okw player would love to be to get faust as side grade without having to set up truck.

I have provided my opinion on Ppsh and on tech and have little to add.

I'm not arguing the advantage of side techs I'm arguing that cons undeniably cost more. Your claim was that volks cost more and I'm disputing that especially since it reads like you feel con ppsh should be inferior due to that incorrect belief.
4 Nov 2020, 01:22 AM
#107
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2020, 01:19 AMgbem


i mean we could just bring cons ppsh to 6x ppsh... its alot easier and better for balance


I did stat that in my last post, but yes it would. I can see this working well with seven man cons.
4 Nov 2020, 01:25 AM
#108
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



I did stat that in my last post, but yes it would. I can see this working well with seven man cons.


ahh great... yeah fully kitting out... wasnt able to read line that the last time... but there truly is some notion in the forum at the moment that sov stuff (like the maxim or cons ppsh) should be subpar for X reason... which is ignoring the fact that the soviets are an underperforming faction...
4 Nov 2020, 08:26 AM
#109
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


I'm not arguing the advantage of side techs I'm arguing that cons undeniably cost more. Your claim was that volks cost more and I'm disputing that especially since it reads like you feel con ppsh should be inferior due to that incorrect belief.

Each unit has a cost Conscripts cost 240 and VG 260 those are simply facts. VG cost more manpower than Conscripts. They both come without snares or grenades.

One has to take into account the added cost of tech if it is necessary for a unit to become available. The rest is simply not so straightforward as each system has its pro and con.

My point was never that PPsh should be inferior because VG are more expensive, my point is that OP is exaggerating and it has done so many thread.

And I do not think that MP-40 VGs are better is since once vetted Conscripts perform allot better and bleed less than MP-40 VGs who on the contrary lose value the longer the game takes and weapon/unit become available to allies.

In the end of the day balanced is not achieved by comparing an ability with another ability in vacuum. Allies have so much better QBQ infatry that certain maps are simply unplayable as axis.

I have clearly explain provide my point of view on both issues.

(edited some typos)
4 Nov 2020, 08:58 AM
#110
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2020, 08:26 AMVipper

Each unit has a cost Conscripts cost 240 and VG 250 those are simply facts. VG cost less manpower than Conscripts.


I would like to know how you got to that, that would be nice. Also, your numbers are wrong.

Wait, what? Do you mind elaborating how you got to that with the numbers that you provide?
250 > 240

Very confusing with the numbers and explanation that you provide. Since you explain that tech needs to be included, do you mind telling us how to got to these numbers that one is higher than the other? Can you tell us how your approach can be used to calculate what you could call the true tech cost of every unit?

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2020, 08:26 AMVipper

My point was never that PPsh should be inferior because VG are more expensive, my point is that OP is exaggerating and it has done so many thread.


Your point is ... ad hominem? Attack the argument, not the person, that makes it a better discussion.
4 Nov 2020, 09:19 AM
#112
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2020, 09:15 AMVipper

I have nothing to say to you.


How do VGs cost less than conscripts as according to you? Your numbers are wrong too. I am confident that other people out there also want to know how you got to that conclusion from the quoted post above, and not only me.

I asked in a friendly manner to explain your thought and to provide some help towards how you got your numbers, but if you refuse to do so, it is your opinion to do so. There's no need for insults (which i edited out of your quote).

Edit: If you edit parts of your posts and its meaning after them being quoted to be wrong, it's wrong. just accept your mistake and move on.
4 Nov 2020, 09:32 AM
#113
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2020, 08:26 AMVipper

Each unit has a cost Conscripts cost 240 and VG 250 those are simply facts. VG cost more manpower than Conscripts. They both come without snares or grenades.

(edited a typo)


Please stop arguing with stats and play the game, volks are 260mp (September 2019 patch, post 161).

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/comment/288243#Comment_288243

Edit: I would give you a pass if it was about something more obscure but for mainline infantry for a faction, no.
4 Nov 2020, 09:59 AM
#114
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Please stop arguing with stats and play the game,

I play the game quite often, try not believe what some users keep repeating. They are projecting their own flaws since they themselves do not play the game.



volks are 260mp (September 2019 patch, post 161).

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/comment/288243#Comment_288243

Thanks for the correction, that makes my point stronger.


Edit: I would give you a pass if it was about something more obscure but for mainline infantry for a faction, no.

I have not need for pass, I posted a wrong price, it happens and a correction is most welcomed.
4 Nov 2020, 10:05 AM
#115
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2020, 09:59 AMVipper

I play the game quite allot thank you.

And thanks for the correction that make my point stronger.


I'm glad I boost your ego (probably not the correct word but you get the point).
4 Nov 2020, 10:07 AM
#116
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



I'm glad I boost your ego.

My ego was not affect at all.

And I already thanked you for your correction.

Can we now cut down on the personal staff that have little place in forum about a game?
4 Nov 2020, 10:21 AM
#117
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2020, 10:07 AMVipper

My ego was not affect at all.

And I already thanked you for your correction.

Can we now cut down on the personal staff that have little place in forum about a game?


I might of came a bit close.

Anyway, besides giving conscripts all ppshs, do you think its fair to give them a grenade (obviously not a good one). I mean it is just a ppsh upgrade coloured as a assault package.

I mean the volks assault package includes.
.7% recieved accuracy reduction
.5 mp40s
.grenade
.smoke grenade

45 muni cost

And the conscript assault package is.
.3 ppshs

60 muni cost

I would think the ppsh should fully kit them out with ppsh not making them a weird hybrid. A grenade and possibly increase their veterancy gain due to conscripts nature of being not so great without vet or 7 man.
4 Nov 2020, 10:45 AM
#118
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



I might of came a bit close.

Anyway, besides giving conscripts all ppshs, do you think its fair to give them a grenade (obviously not a good one). I mean it is just a ppsh upgrade coloured as a assault package.
....

I have many times said that imo mainline infatry should not anti garrison weapon stock, I would not little issue with conscripts having a HE stock or even with PPsh but I doubt that would actually be a buff meaning full way.

If you want to list what each abilities bring you have to include flamer and hit the dirt both of which imo should not be included in the bundle.

experimental staff.
4 Nov 2020, 11:30 AM
#119
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2020, 08:26 AMVipper

Each unit has a cost Conscripts cost 240 and VG 260 those are simply facts. VG cost more manpower than Conscripts. They both come without snares or grenades. it is a fact, rather a portion of the facts. The costs are right, and both do come without their snare/nade but cons will never get them without a dedicated extra cost that only serves to increase the price of the unit

One has to take into account the added cost of tech if it is necessary for a unit to become available. The rest is simply not so straightforward as each system has its pro and con. it's not cut an dried for Volks however like it is for cons as okw gets a number of things from teching up so the additional cost would either be spread out across those things or one could subtract what cons pay exclusively for their upgrades (as in unlocks no other units or upgrades) from okw first tech to find relative ground but all that does is show how much of a power spike okw gets for next to nothing early on.

4 Nov 2020, 11:53 AM
#120
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

7 years of game life and some people still struggle to comprehend how unit specific side cost upgrades bloat units cost....
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