Conscript PPSH assault package

Hit the dirt and 7 man is just plain awesome. That said, hit the dirt does have grenade dodge utility-even for ppsh cons.

its less of a grenade doge utility more of a grenade eat utility...

[PPSH details]
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Okay, now try PPSH cons vs StG44 volks by running into them at 0-10 and watch how the latter get vaporised up close. Or vet III against vet II LMG Obers and watch them go to the last man. You only get 3(?) PPSHs as opposed to 5 MP40s for the units you described. Their midrange is still workable while MP40 users might as well be eating Bratwurst for all the dps they'll do at that range.

Anyway, there's a long list of things that are more of an issue than PPSH cons.

EDIT: Show Spoiler

its less of a grenade doge utility more of a grenade eat utility...

Absolutely correct. The Guard equivalent is also a grenade magnet. *Begins tossing Infiltration Nades*

How.... ability that makes to immovable gives you nade dodge utility....?

its less of a grenade doge utility more of a grenade eat utility...

Mostly this. Panic button to mitigate grenade damage a dodge a wipe. Poor wording i suppose but my point was that its useful against nades.

Odd you should respond to this comment though instead of my previous post.

Mostly this. Panic button to mitigate grenade damage a dodge a wipe. Poor wording i suppose but my point was that its useful against nades.

Odd you should respond to this comment though instead of my previous post.

It does nothing against bundle nades and nade assault/spec ops nades and rnades are easy to dodge.

why should a unit`s usefulness be tied to veterancy? units need to be viable at vet 0 not at vet X..

Because nerfing Conscript veterancy in order to buff the PPSH upgrade would be stupid.

i like the idea of cons getting 2 choices stock, 3x ppsh OR 7th man, and perhaps make it doctrinal to get 6x ppsh's

or give 6x ppsh to penals as a stock alternative, don't think that would be too OP.

i like the idea of cons getting 2 choices stock, 3x ppsh OR 7th man, and perhaps make it doctrinal to get 6x ppsh's

or give 6x ppsh to penals as a stock alternative, don't think that would be too OP.

Ppsh will never be stock.

Mostly this. Panic button to mitigate grenade damage a dodge a wipe. Poor wording i suppose but my point was that its useful against nades.

Odd you should respond to this comment though instead of my previous post.

You are misunderstanding the ability. Hit The Dirt forces your cons to ground, immobilises them, and provides them with Yellow Cover. Not a single part of that mitigates Grenade damage in any way. Only green cover (and Building cover) reduces Grenade damage, or damage in general. Yellow cover cuts enemy accuracy in half, and Green cover cuts accuracy and damage in half. (Building cover is similar to Green, though slightly weaker)

Yellow Cover only benefits you Vs small arms (marginal benefit vs direct fire explosives due to reduced accuracy).

That's not ppsh performance, that's cons having strong vet, it would make even single DP look good, but it wouldn't change the fact single DP is bad itself.

PPSH cons perform well at vet3, but then again, any weapon will, given con vet.

The performance of a weapon itself isn't anywhere near as important as the performance of the weapon in the hands of its wielder. You could give the Ober version of the LMG34 to Pioneers, but you'd be lying if you then tried to say the gun is just as effective. It's more useful to refer to a "weapon's" performance relative to its user.

I'd rather SOV got a Frontovik squad or something (Perhaps vanilla), rather than the PPSH upgrade continuing on, honestly. It would likely be far easier to get something workable in such a case, as you can more readily change whatever stat you may like, and create a balanced unit. The only issue I could see being that the power to convert an existing squad is quite a valuable part of the ability, rather than having to build a new one.

Yellow Cover only benefits you Vs small arms (marginal benefit vs direct fire explosives due to reduced accuracy).

Explosive weapons generally do not use accuracy. So in general medium cover is worse than no cover versus AOE weapons because it makes models clump up, which makes them take more AOE damage from single hits.

As far as I know Hit The Dirt gives special bonuses though, namely -10% damage for -20% accuracy (and immunity to suppression), not a medium cover bonus (-50% received accuracy). So it does help versus grenades, but not a lot.

I think giving a vet gain boost would be a good idea. As people said cons at vet 3 are very strong and boost any type of weapon upgrade significantly. Therefore just straight buffing the ppsh upgrade might over tune it. However helping cons get to that vet 3 would go a long way in helping the ppsh upgrade be better.

Explosive weapons generally do not use accuracy. So in general medium cover is worse than no cover versus AOE weapons because it makes models clump up, which makes them take more AOE damage from single hits.

As far as I know Hit The Dirt gives special bonuses though, namely -10% damage for -20% accuracy (and immunity to suppression), not a medium cover bonus (-50% received accuracy). So it does help versus grenades, but not a lot.

Yeah, that's why I said "Direct fire" explosive weapons, and it being only a marginal benefit (And usually a detriment)

Tank shells sometimes do "hit" their infantry target, accuracy reductions make this less likely, which COULD help a squad... though it's pretty much infinitesimal.

Im going to go ahead and test Hit The Dirt now, and see if you are right. I'm reasonably sure it just provides Yellow Cover bonus, but I suppose it's best to be sure.

Yeah, that's why I said "Direct fire" explosive weapons, and it being only a marginal benefit (And usually a detriment)

Tank shells sometimes do "hit" their infantry target, accuracy reductions make this less likely, which COULD help a squad... though it's pretty much infinitesimal.

Im going to go ahead and test Hit The Dirt now, and see if you are right. I'm reasonably sure it just provides Yellow Cover bonus, but I suppose it's best to be sure.

Just tested, and in fact you were right, Sander. Hit The Dirt DOES give a 10% DR, along with whichever other bonuses.

Sorry Serrith, you're actually right. I was completely mistaken. Christ, why can't the information floating around about this game just be right for once?

Won't help against being oneshot by Bundle grenades though. Marginal help against the mid-far damage of such grenades however. The oneshot range of those grenades is actually the same as "regular" grenades, which is interesting to find out.

Just tested, and in fact you were right, Sander. Hit The Dirt DOES give a 10% DR, along with whichever other bonuses.

Sorry Serrith, you're actually right. I was completely mistaken. Christ, why can't the information floating around about this game just be right for once?

Won't help against being oneshot by Bundle grenades though. Marginal help against the mid-far damage of such grenades however. The oneshot range of those grenades is actually the same as "regular" grenades, which is interesting to find out.

It used to provide yellow cover bonus until it was patched

https://www.coh2.org/guides/88945/the-coh2-ability-guide-mark-2-0

"Hit the Dirt (passive; available for all Conscript PPSh commander abilities)
Hit the Dirt is being adjusted to allow Conscripts to trade mobility for survivability. Accuracy is lowered to compensate as a trade-off for increased defense and immunity to suppression.

Now bundled with Conscript Assault Package
Cover changed from yellow-cover to -10% received damage
Accuracy decreased by 20% while active"

And yes damage reduction helps squad survive explosive weapons.

Just tested, and in fact you were right, Sander. Hit The Dirt DOES give a 10% DR, along with whichever other bonuses.

Hey wait a minute! Damage reductions were removed off rangers because we didn't want them in the game!!!!!111!!!11!!!!11111!11!

Show Spoiler

Conscript PPSHs are just power creeped out. They're ok, they're not 7-man or SVTs though. Also with how shocks are now and you can basically have any heavy you want with shocks in that doctrine there isn't a reason to use PPSH cons.

why should a unit`s usefulness be tied to veterancy? units need to be viable at vet 0 not at vet X..

Laughs in obers and air landing officer.

Hey wait a minute! Damage reductions were removed off rangers because we didn't want them in the game!!!!!111!!!11!!!!11111!11!
...

Damage reduction was not communicated to players for rangers according to the "official" channels.

Although this is ability and not always on and that leaves vet 3 grenadiers with damage reduction.

Given how powerful bazookas ranges are it is better without the damage reduction.

Hey wait a minute! Damage reductions were removed off rangers because we didn't want them in the game!!!!!111!!!11!!!!11111!11!

Show Spoiler

Conscript PPSHs are just power creeped out. They're ok, they're not 7-man or SVTs though. Also with how shocks are now and you can basically have any heavy you want with shocks in that doctrine there isn't a reason to use PPSH cons.

I never really understood why people complained so much about rangers losing their DR. They're a large squad with fantastic firepower and good RA. Especially since they can equip SuperBazookas. A DR enabled AT squad was weird.

It's odd that Grenadiers have it at Vet3, but I'd like to say it makes more sense there. I expect there are many who disagree.

That they've been powercreeped out is why I advocate for a Frontovik replacement. It'd be much easier to find a niche if you had more control over squad stats/abilities. (A vanilla "assault" squad for SOV might also be kind of nice. They still need so many changes)

EDIT: Also, Its clear you're being sarcastic, Link, and this then isnt directed at you, but; DR tied to an ability makes more sense anyway. There are also several units who still have DR if we had a look. The Kubel comes to mind. It's not quite so uncommon as people might like to think.

Also Veterancy being a consideration in Unit balance is fine. The only outlier regarding "Vet Balancing" being stupid is Riflemen's snare. I suppose they're like that to be "Unique", but it should just be tied to getting an LT or CPT out or something like that instead. Also it should use the Rifle Grenade animation.

I never really understood why people complained so much about rangers losing their DR. They're a large squad with fantastic firepower and good RA. Especially since they can equip SuperBazookas. A DR enabled AT squad was weird.

Was probably because rangers at the time were probably the strongest elites in the game, and when the OP unit gets nerfed people can't abuse it anymore. It was just kinda hypocritcal literally next patch they then gave grens their damage reduction after saying they just wanted to remove it from the game. Keep in mind though that urban assault wasn't a doctrine yet, so the sprinting ranger zook blob wasn't a thing. It was pretty rare imo to see rangers wasted on super zooks when you could've had one of the best elites and jacksons backing it up.

Was probably because rangers at the time were probably the strongest elites in the game, and when the OP unit gets nerfed people can't abuse it anymore. It was just kinda hypocritcal literally next patch they then gave grens their damage reduction after saying they just wanted to remove it from the game. Keep in mind though that urban assault wasn't a doctrine yet, so the sprinting ranger zook blob wasn't a thing. It was pretty rare imo to see rangers wasted on super zooks when you could've had one of the best elites and jacksons backing it up.

Honestly, as much as people like to complain about Wehraboos, it does feel as though there are just as many Alliaboos floating around who really don't like to see their favourite stuff reduced in power. I imagine some of the same people complaining about rangers being nerfed were those clamouring (and possibly still clamouring, despite them really not being that bad now) for Fallschirmjager nerfs.

EDIT: It's not as though you could even describe Rangers as "bad" now, anyway. They're still fantastic.

To be fair, their wording was "Previously, they were the only ones to take less damage from all sources." in the patch notes, unless there were other comments made. It was a little "hypocritical" to add it back in, I suppose, but to my knowledge ranger's DR was inherent, not a Veterancy bonus like Grens? In any case, I don't think it's unreasonable to walk back on something if it turns out there is a good reason to do so. The only four man mainline having DR makes a little more sense. (Tommies dont count. They're fiveman when it'd matter)

Also: The patch that removed Ranger DR was the same one that introduced Urban Assault. I expect that did indeed have something to do with it. This was also before the Jackson's armour nerf.

Ppsh will never be stock.

That makes no sense when the number of PPSH41s made outnumber every other submachinegun of ww2... the mp40 doesnt even come close...

From a game balance perspective ppshs for conscripts also make sense since theyre supposed to have alot of close range firepower