Commandos are too good!

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 12:45 PMAerohank

Stats can be very misleading.
Conscripts have a lot more EHP than grenadiers, but still have only a 50/50 chance of winning engagements.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 12:45 PMAerohank

Likewise, Commandos are a lot more squishy than Obers, despite having more 'EHP', because most weapons do more damage up close, which is the range where Commandos need to go to do any damage, often having to abondon any cover bonus along the way. Obers on the other hand can hapily shoot from max range where they will take a lot less damage from enemy rifles and they don't have to move out of cover.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 12:01 PMJohnSmith

Effective Hit-Points have been discussed to completely mislead discussions. It blows up numbers with a massive effect to higher proportions making units look as if they are OP while In fact, they're not.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 13:09 PMSander93

I don't really see how these stats are misleading, or how they would blow up numbers. They are simply the only way to effectively compare units. In the case of infantry durability versus small arms, with wildly varying factors such as number of models and target size, effective hitpoints is the only way to compare their durability.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 13:09 PMSander93

I don't really see how these stats are misleading, or how they would blow up numbers. They are simply the only way to effectively compare units. In the case of infantry durability versus small arms, with wildly varying factors such as number of models and target size, effective hitpoints is the only way to compare their durability.

Of course there are certain nuances like that EHP is based on average RNG, but so are almost all stats.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 12:59 PMVipper

That is because an engagement is decided by both EHP and DPS.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 12:59 PMVipper

Commandos are not shock troops they are ambush units and that is why they have camo and first strike bonuses.

If one moves commanods in open field out of cover and out of camo one is simply doing something wrong.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 13:13 PMJohnSmith

if you do a direct comparison in a particular setting and scenario with controlled entry and outputs, that works yeah. but ignoring everything and just saying "unit has 690 EHP so it's OP" is just wrong and misleading.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 13:15 PMAerohank

No sht Sherlock.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 13:15 PMAerohank

You are absolutely right,

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 13:15 PMAerohank

whenever you have ambushed one squad you should instantly retreat instead of moving in on other squad because otherwise you are simply doing something wrong.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 13:21 PMVipper

Glad that you agree. If you want argue EHP more I suggest you do it Sander93 since a sense a hostility toward me.


Well it happens and I am ok with it, it is others that have problems with me being right.


If ones has ambushed another squad with commandos one should make full use the nuke grenade and then finish the squad, taking advantage of the "first strikes" bonus when available and thus take minimal damage which can then auto-heal available at vet 1.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 13:52 PMAerohank

You are unironicly saying that commandos should take as little damage as possible otherwise you are playing them wrong in the same thread where you argue that commandos have "great EHP".

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 12:59 PMVipper

Commandos are not shock troops they are ambush units and that is why they have camo and first strike bonuses.

If one moves commanods in open field out of cover and out of camo one is simply doing something wrong.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 13:13 PMPip

It ignores the role the unit is intended to perform, though.

Snipers, for example, have very poor EHP, and by merely looking at that you might be led to believe that they are beyond worthless, and would be killed immediately in a fight.

The fact that they're not intended for frontline duty, and in fact if they are being shot at all you are doing something entirely wrong, isn't reflected if you talk purely about "EHP". It's part of a bigger picture, but some people seem to think it's the only thing that matters for an unit. Snipers are an extreme example, of course, but I hope it serves to illustrate my argument.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 14:15 PMVipper

Commandos have great EHP that is a simple fact.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 15:25 PMHannibal

[..] There are some other factors such as camouflage and extended sight that would allow a unit to have less EHP than an otherwise identical unit, but for comparisons within the same unit category, they are an okay mark. If some stats are "too low" (whatever that means) for the price of the unit, you can deduct that they need to make up for it in utility. To stay with the snipers: They are very squishy and expensive compared to front line troops, therefore they make up for it with high range, sight, camouflage and insta kills. The EHP correctly shows that they would lose a 1v1 despite being more expensive.

The comparison of Obersoldaten and Commandos is quite off in most cases, but Stormtroopers fit quite nicely into the picture.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 13:13 PMPip

It ignores the role the unit is intended to perform, though.

[...]

The fact that they're not intended for frontline duty, and in fact if they are being shot at all you are doing something entirely wrong, isn't reflected if you talk purely about "EHP". It's part of a bigger picture, but some people seem to think it's the only thing that matters for an unit. Snipers are an extreme example, of course, but I hope it serves to illustrate my argument.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 15:35 PMJohnSmith

I would agree with the point that everyone on the side of the discussion that using EHP as a statistic is only viable if used directly to compare against other units in game-play situations, basically exactly as Hannibal and Pip say. EHP on its own doesn't make sense, e.g. Vipper says that commandos have great EHP overall presented as fact but he is generally wrong ; That number is as it is only valid within a very specific given context of play and compared directly against others within given limitations. The value only make sense when compared directly with something, and not just on its own - Otherwise it is a value which can be very misleading!

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 15:48 PMVipper

PLS provide specific number of proving me wrong and that Commandos EHP is bad instead of vague assumptions.

Else pls stop quoting me, commenting me or mentioning my name as you have promised once already do do.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 15:25 PMHannibal

I don't think it illustrates it well.

Snipers ARE killed basically immediately in a fight. EHP shows effectively that they are squishy as intended. There are some other factors such as camouflage and extended sight that would allow a unit to have less EHP than an otherwise identical unit, but for comparisons within the same unit category they are an okay mark. If some stats are "too low" (whatever that means) for the price of the unit, you can deduce that they need to make up for it in utility. To stay with the snipers: They are very squishy and expensive compared to front line troops, therefore they make up for it with high range, sight, camouflage and insta kills. The EHP correctly shows that they would lose a 1v1 despite being more expensive.
The comparison of Obersoldaten and Commandos is quite off in most cases, but Stormtroopers fit quite nicely into the picture.

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2020, 15:35 PMJohnSmith

I would agree with the point that everyone on the side of the discussion that using EHP as a statistic is only viable if used directly to compare against other units in game-play situations, basically exactly as Hannibal and Pip say. EHP on its own doesn't make sense, e.g. Vipper says that commandos have great EHP overall presented as fact but he is generally wrong ; That number is as it is only valid within a very specific given context of play and compared directly against others within given limitations. The value only make sense when compared directly with something, and not just on its own - Otherwise it is a value which can be very misleading!